In this episode of the ATP Project, Matt, Steve, and Elizma chat about intermittent fasting for weight loss & fasted cardio. What can offset a fast, what the definition of fasted cardio is when it is important to factor into your lifestyle and the fallout benefits of intermittent fasting for your body.
00:01:04 – Podcast Start
00:03:01 – What is fasted cardio?
00:04:35 – Best time for fasted cardio and cortisol spikes
00:06:54 – Hierarchy of burning fuel with fasted cardio
00:08:11 – Fat adaptation
00:10:14 – Staying glycogen depleted
00:11:05 – Mitochondria and fasted cardio
00:14:32 – Insulin resistance
00:15:04 – AMPK system
00:17:45 – Diabetes
00:21L29 – Ketone production
00:23:22 – AMP-V
00:26:58 – AMPK
00:27:37 – mTOR
00:28:30 – Carb loading v carb restriction
00:30:05 – High fat diets and bile
00:31:31 – ppar receptor
00:32:27 – HCG diet
00:36:24 – Akkermansia
00:37:07 – Does fasted cardio induce bile flow
00:38:38 – Fatty liver
00:40:09 – Cholesterol
00:43:25 – Intensity of training and the perception of stress
00:44:37 – Breaking the fast with a coffee?
00:48:45 – Restricting carbs
00:50:22 – Fasted cardio benefits
00:53:08 – Under recovery rather than over training
00:56:13 – Subcut and fasted cardio and uncoupling proteins
00:59:04 – When do I eat? and wrap up
01:12:36 – Testimonial – Aurum Oil
01:14:46 – FAQ
Steve: Welcome to the ATP project. Today we’ve got a special guest, and Elizma is joining us today the the wonderful Biochemist. But we’re going to be talking about fasted exercise, we’re going to be talking about mitochondria, we’re going to be talking about nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide hydrogen, we’re going to talk about all these biochemistry today and sit back and enjoy because this one’s for the nerds. Thank you very much.
Matt: As always, this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent or cure any condition and is for information only. Please discuss any information with podcast with your health care professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned, the ATP project is about to start.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the ATP project. Delivering the [irreverent 00:00:43] truth about health, aging, performance and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax and open your mind. As Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health related that can make you better.
Steve: Welcome to the ATP project. Here with your host Matt, Elizma and Steve today. How are we all?
Elizma: Oh, very good thanks Steve.
Steve: You’re back.
Elizma: I am.
Steve: I can’t believe that. After last time, after what Matt said.
Matt: What? That was after she left.
Steve: All right. Well that’s all right then.
Matt: [inaudible 00:01:23] overtake it.
Steve: That’s all right. Now today we’ve got a cool one. We’re going to be talking about things called PPARs, and AMPK. Oh, biochemistry is up. And we’re going to talk about exercise, when to exercise, what to do when you exercise. And it’s just a wonderful day and I love the chart in front of you there. And it starts at the top with glucose. Now this is all about what we eat and what happens with the food and the destiny of our food. And we’re going to be talking about how to fix all our metabolic problems.
Matt: And we always, always get asked the question, when’s the best time of day to exercise? A standard easy simple answer that you give as a get out of jail free card is, when’s the best time for you to exercise. The best times for exercise is when you do it. But today we’re talking a little bit more specifically about fasted exercise. Who should do fasted exercise, when it’s appropriate, and just our theories behind it.
Because if you have a look across big population studies, the data may be variable across the whole population. Those that do the fasting exercise may not necessarily be better fat loss than someone else. If we have a look statistically not significant across a population for calories in and calories out and it’s all that matters and it doesn’t matter when you train and all that sort of stuff.
But today we’re going to talk about some of the mechanisms about people that benefit from fasted exercise. What fasted exercise is, but also how it can actually change the paradigm behind calories in and calories out. The simple things you can do to start your day that might actually change your metabolism for the rest of the day. Or help to create, or break a vicious cycle that you might be stuck in with an insulin carbohydrate disorder. So fasted exercise, first of all we’re pretty much talking about first thing in the morning?
Matt: Or is the definition of fasting, is there another time in the day that-
Steve: Well I thought it was exercise that you do faster, but it’s not obviously. What is fasted exercise?
Elizma: So fasted exercise would mean that you haven’t really eaten anything before and also not preferably not eat anything for a couple of hours after exercise, to sort of prolong that fat burning. But it goes a little bit away from what we’ve always been told, like have a banana while you exercise or what have you. Or have a protein shake while you exercise. And that’s fine, but it depends on what your purpose is for exercise.
If your purpose is weight loss, or fat burn, then fasted exercise would be the best way to do it. And you were talking about this, Steve, like the easiest way is to just do it first thing in the morning. You wake up and you just get moving. Because you would have had that over night fasted period. Once you’re finished and you get back home, you can wait for a couple of hours before you have your first meal for the day if you want to amplify that.
But of course you can do fasted exercise any time of the day, it’s just that most people will find it a bit harder to do fasted exercise at any other time. What they do recommend though, for those who like to train in the evenings, like let’s say go to gym at seven or eight o’clock, is to have your evening meal sort of around five, or no later than 5:00 PM. And that way you can also make it a fasted exercise session. As long as you don’t eat anything once you return home as well. But, this-
Matt: Some of those papers I read too, they talked about a four hour window.
Matt: Where you haven’t had any carbs to induce an insulin spike.
Matt: Some of the definitions of fasting is based on base line levels of insulin, and basal fasted glucose levels, that sort of thing as well. So the interesting thing about first thing in the morning, if you consider when we wake up in the morning, we’ve been fasting. That’s where the word, breakfast, comes from. The break the fast.
Steve: Break the fast.
Matt: So we don’t break the fast, we stay within the fasting phase. When we wake up, obviously insulin is secreted in response to sweetness and sugars, and elevated blood sugar levels. And insulin would determine to a certain degree where the sugar goes and that sort of thing. But also first thing in the morning we talk about cortisol spiking, and cortisol coming up.
Matt: If we always talk about cortisol preserving stuff and breaking down muscles, so I always wondered whether that time would be the best time. But then when you look at it, and you really nail down into it, cortisol is extremely important for the liberation of fuel, when we’re in a fasted state. So it actually starts to make sense, that while insulin’s low, cortisol’s a little bit higher, it takes the inflammation under control, it helps to liberate and get our body metabolizing something during the fasted state. But what else is happening?
When we wake up in the morning, the liver’s been working all night, our bowels might be ready to go, we’ve got our cellular energy production, we’ve been sitting still for so long. And when we’re sitting still, we get reduced circulation, we’re getting less oxygen delivery into the tissues. Typically if we look at the analogy of a car, we’re getting incomplete combustion without adequate circulation and good oxygen, and that sort of stuff. So we end up with a bit of shit in the carbie.
So when we wake up in the morning, we have residual, unburnt fuel. When we say we’re fasted, we haven’t eaten from the night before. We’re not empty, we should have glycogen reserves there, and we should have within our skeletal muscles and within our mitochondria and within our liver, we should have fuel. So with fasted cardio, tell me, Elizma, what’s the hierarchy with burning of fuel and all that sort of thing?
Elizma: Well, first of all, if there’s sugar in the blood stream that’ll be the first fuel that gets burned. Once that gets to a certain level, then your body will start to go into glycogen stores, which is generally stored glucose or stored sugar in the muscle cells or the liver cells. And once that is depleted, then your body will go into fat stores. And so that’s through beta-oxidation or that oxidation of fats. Then your body will actually really be in fat burning mode. So if you’re constantly eating high carb meals, or you have the insulin spikes and you’re not exercising in a fasted state. Your body will always prefer to break down… it’ll always use the fuel source that’s easily available, which is sugar or glucose in the blood stream or glycogen. And you never get into the fat stores.
Matt: And the sugar that you have before exercise, that’s not doing anything really for glycogen, is it?
Matt: The sugar that you have before exercise, that’s blood sugar?
Elizma: Exactly, just spikes insulin. Which is fine if you’re skinny and you want to build muscle. Then you want an insulin spike, because it’s an anabolic hormone. But for most people who want to lose weight, a lot of women who want to lose weight, it’s definitely not what you want to do. You don’t want to spike that insulin.
Steve: That’s absolutely true. And what you say is correct. Now we talked about something before the podcast about this thing called fat adaptation. Which is basically, I’ll put it simply and then you can elaborate a bit more on this, how the body is adapted to burn fat when it’s exercise if you trained fasted for up to six weeks, the studies say. So fat adaptation is our body’s adaptation to burn fat and actually preserve glycogen in the muscles.
Matt: Oh wow.
Steve: Yeah. It’s pretty cool.
Matt: That’s interesting. Because I’m sitting here the whole time you’re talking, I’m thinking but is that because for the six weeks leading to that have depleted that glycogen? We’re talking about that hierarchy of your blood sugar first, and then we’re on to the gly… are you trying to say that you can train your body to burn fat in preference to the stored glycogen?
Steve: Absolutely, the studies are really cool. It preserves glycogen in the muscle.
Matt: It’s truth?
Steve: And it’s really cool like that because that’s fat adaptation, it’s very difficult to achieve. Because a lot of people don’t get up and train regularly every morning before breakfast.
Matt: So how do they choose? So you’re just saying regular-
Steve: Yup. Regular exercise.
Matt: Every morning for a period of time and you train your body to burn that fat during exercise instead of glycogen?
Steve: Yup. Eight weeks, and as long as you didn’t fast for greater than 24 hours this study says. So obviously you’ve eaten eight, 10, 12 hours ago. So you find you can preserve muscle glycogen.
Matt: Yeah, wow.
Steve: And we we’re talking about, we both run of course-
Matt: And what’s that level of intensity for that too?
Steve: 60 to 75% of VO2 max. Which is actually quite moderate to high intensity.
Steve: So you know when I run marathons really, I can run that fasted, and that’s for four hours. Little bit less than four hours, I beat the four hour…
Matt: And over what time period? How long do they work for?
Steve: It said it was up to 90 minutes that you could preserve glycogen. So as long as-
Steve: Yeah. So it’s pretty cool this fat adaptation thing. And that’s why when you in I finish to exercise in the morning, we’re not starving, we’re not depleted.
Elizma: Yeah, yup.
Steve: We’re sweaty, we smell, have sore feet from running but I don’t feel depleted.
Matt: So in the meantime as well, like the normal scenario where we’d burn off the blood sugar, we strip out the glycogen we got, you mentioned not ending that fast immediately post workout. So then that state we’re talking about staying glycogen depleted. So we’re trying to stay glycogen depleted and maintain that because you’re saying that enhances that after burn. You get more of that fatty acid oxidation after your exercise and set you up for the rest of the by clearing out that re-
Elizma: That’s right. And you’re creating more ketones and things like that which can then fuel the brain, help with focus and concentration for the rest of the day. But yeah, it just helps and deplete, or empty that mitochondria. Empty the cells of all that stored energy.
Matt: Let’s talk more about that mitochondria. So when we’re talking about… we’re taking the sugar that goes out of your blood-
Matt: And it goes inside our cells. Okay, now I’m imagining our cells aren’t just like a grape with a skin full of sugar. So how does that work? We got mitochondria burns fat and sugar? Talk about, tell everyone, give a real basic rundown of the mitochondria dump.
Elizma: All right. So you’re right. So you have your sugar in the blood stream and then you get the insulin release, and the insulin release then activates what they call GLUT receptors. So they’re like these little gates, little gates that open up on the cells, and that allows the sugar or glucose to go into the cell. So now the glucose is in the cell and then it gets converted into glucose-6-phosphate. Now glucose-6-phosphate can not leave the cell. Once it’s in the cell, and it’s in that form, it’s stuck. It’s an irreversible process.
Matt: The insulin’s job for everyone is, it doesn’t care where the sugar is, it just shoves that sugar somewhere, get it out of your blood.
Elizma: Shoves it into the cell. That’s right. So now you have that glucose-6-phosphate, and that’ll be either burned up through the glycolytic cycle which is not inside the mitochondria yet, or that glucose will go into the mitochondria where it gets burned for fuel which is a more efficient way of producing energy. So it depends on a few factors.
Matt: And less waste.
Elizma: Yeah. But that creates waste, it creates free radical. And if you have too much sugar going in and you’re forcing it into the mitochondria, you’re going to be producing a lot more free radicals. And free radicals then puts pressure on your antioxidant systems. So if you’re not eating your vegetables and healthy diets, then you’re going to have excess free radicals, that’s going to damage DNA. That’s why sugar can become very aging in that respect.
Matt: Yeah, you’re right.
Steve: In fact the term advanced glycosylated end products which were the ages physically age across linking. And that’s why high sugar diets age you. And usually people with a lot of sugar in their diet, or a lot of grains that turn into sugars, typically have a lower antioxidant status. Because the ORAC or oxidative radical absorption capacity of these foods like grains are very low. So they get a lot of sugar but no antioxidants. So it’s a terrible scenario to be in. So if you’re having a Weet-Bix and milk for breakfast, sandwich and cheese for lunch, and noodles, pasta, rice for dinner and you still have some vegetables but not enough. It doesn’t cover the oxidative capacity. So you get this free radical damage, which of course damages the mitochondria.
Matt: So then if you consider that the mitochondria, like if you look at a cellular structure and our body being like 60, 70% water, we have all these oily structures bathed in this water. If we look at mechanicalistically, we’ve got the cell wall is an oily flexible structure, the mitochondria is pretty much just folds and folds of oil. So you can imagine a buildup of oxidative free radicals. What that would actually do to the oily structures within a cell? Because a lot of these compounds are water soluble as such. And basically you’ve got these oily energy warehouses bathed in acid water.
Matt: And so that creates a lot of damage to the mitochondria, therefore creating a bit of a vicious cycle where the mitochondria doesn’t produce as much energy therefore makes more waste. Yeah, of course-
Matt: So the fasted cardio, or the fasted exercise would allow us to take some of that residual sugars that are left inside the cells and burn them off before we try to add more.
Elizma: Yeah, absolutely. And other thing that you mentioned Matt which was very important is that the cell is not just like a grape that just absorbs glucose all the time. So there will come a stage where there’s glucose-6-phosphate inside the cell that it’s like the cell says, “I can’t handle any more. I can’t let any more glucose in.”
That’s when we get insulin resistance. Because now the blood sugar stays outside the cell because there’s no more space for it inside the cell the body produces insulin in response and that’s how we eventually become insulin resistant.
Now the beauty of fasted exercise is first of all, it does clear out a lot of that glucose inside the cell so it allows more glucose to come in and you keep that chain of sugar burning or food burning going. But there’s also ways that we can sometimes bypass it through the AMPK system. So AMPK is sort for a long word. AMPK-
Steve: Well adenosine monophosphate kinase. Sorry to be a nerd, yeah.
Steve: So tannins of your system and that… Well you can talk about the enzyme system if you want.
Elizma: It’s a really interesting little mechanism because it’s insulin independent. Whereas usually you’d need insulin to get food into the cell to burn for energy, if you can activate AMPK, then you don’t need that insulin. So people who are insulin resistant, where the insulin isn’t really working that well any way, they can use the AMPK system to sort of improve that whole mechanism whilst they’re getting their insulin resistance under control. And it is high intensity interval training that actually stimulates that AMPK system.
Matt: So when we’re talking about the grape analogy, that burying of that sugar from within the grape, the analogy of that big plump full grape, lots of sugar, lots of water, you burn that off and your cells start to resembling more of a sultana, if we look at that. As we deplete the fuel on the inside. That’s one of the things that activate AMPK and GLUT4 transporters to go to the site, to drag more sugar… so when you’re in a glycogen deficit, so when you’re low in sugar in your muscles the muscles are going, “man, I don’t give a shit about the insulin all of a sudden, bring that sugar in, I need it.”
So that’s the other thing too. If someone’s got an insulin resistant problem, taking insulin sensitizing herbs with sugars and things like that. It’s not going to do anything. Because it’s not that you’ve got a receptor defect, you’ve just got a full cell. So the key is to deplete the cell, burn all that stuff off. Get rid of it. Clear the path so more stuff can come in.
Elizma: Absolutely. Because insulin resistance, we’ve always looked at it as a problem. Now, I look at it more as a protective mechanism from the cell. So our cells do that on purpose to stop more glucose from coming into the cell. Because the cell will just die if it just allows more and more glucose to come in. So we always look at insulin resistance as a problem or as a disorder, and it’s like, “no, that’s actually a protective mechanism and it’s actually good that the cell is doing that because that’s the only way it stays alive.”
Matt: [inaudible 00:17:23] like everything’s… Like reverse T3, “oh, this is a horrible thing.” No it’s to protect you when your calories are to far or when you go through a stage where you got to slow down. Yeah, so like all these things… the body doesn’t make stupid things [crosstalk 00:17:36].
Elizma: That’s right. That’s right.
Steve: It’s not that dumb. The interesting about insulin resistance is, let’s take it to the next step, let’s say you’re going to eat your grains every day and you’re not going to do any fasted exercises. If you become insulin resistant and the muscles who become insulin resistant in the liver, which is your glucose-2 transporters, GLUT2 transporters. And if you become insulin resistant in the liver, the liver thinks there’s not enough sugar in the body. Because it doesn’t let any in, so the liver goes, “what do I do? I know I’ll break down the muscle tissue and make all this sugar.” So during the night time while you’re sleeping, and you wake up with this high sugar level in the morning. And that’s what we call diabetes, type 2 diabetes [crosstalk 00:18:12].
Matt: Yeah, but that’s not from you eating.
Matt: You haven’t eating. You haven’t eaten that sugar. That’s not the sugar that you haven’t been able to clear from your blood, that’s from you [crosstalk 00:18:19].
Steve: Making it.
Matt: So basically dealing with the liver, every drop of blood in your body goes through your liver every hour, so it’s a pretty handy little thing to measure what your blood’s doing and monitor your blood while you’re sleeping. So it’s got these little antennas that is picking up how much glucose is in your blood stream and those antennas are covered in fat, inflammation, not sensitive because of back log of fuel, all of a sudden they’re not even working. So the liver’s sitting there thinking, “oh, this poor person’s got not sugar, they’re going to die. Let’s pump it out.” Well, they can’t register it, so they pump more out and then the next thing you have elevated fasting blood glucose. So if I was to wake up in the morning with a fasting blood sugar, makes more sense to burn some of that sugar off by going for a walk before I ate my cereals and raisin toast.
Steve: Yes, high, high sugar foods and that.
Elizma: Your Kellogg’s and-
Matt: The reason why I said that, because in my clinical experience, a lot of people would prescribed like insulin so they’re told, “you’ve got an insulin resistant problem, so we’re going to give you some more insulin. But because we’ve told you to use this insulin, we’re going to eat a certain amount of sugar.” So they’re actually matching their carbs to their prescription. And when I was sitting there saying, “oh, let’s try not eating carbs at night and that sort of stuff, but also let’s do some work with the liver and that sort of stuff. And then the fasting sugar should fix up.” And they’re like, “no, no I can’t do that because I’ve got to eat this certain food because of my prescription of insulin or I’ll have a hypo.” I understand but we need to work with your body as well.
Matt: And that was a big challenge for me. So in this instance, yeah. So we’re hoping people come through before they get to that point or work with a doctor that they can actually communicate well with and talk about some strategies of committing to like diet and exercise strategies for glycogen depletion and that sort of thing.
Steve: Because back in the 50s they discovered a drug called metformin form, which herb is that from Matt?
Matt: No… Goat’s rue. [crosstalk 00:20:17].
Steve: Goat’s rue, that’s the one, that’s the one. And so this great drug that was invented back then from goat’s rue, and it basically stimulates AMPK. And that’s how it works, it works stimulating AMPK which sensitizes the liver to sugars and it stops the production. It’s the number one drug for type 2 diabetics, a very common drug, very [crosstalk 00:20:36].
Matt: And the funny thing is is our herbal alternative to that is berberine.
Matt: Not goat’s rue.
Matt: Now we’re not even allowed to use goat’s rue now because they’ve been restricted or something.
Elizma: Ah, it’s [inaudible 00:20:43] I still see it an ingredient in some borax.
Matt: [inaudible 00:20:48] I just mind the connection that the berberine we used to have the same effect as metformin in that instance.
Steve: Well berberine is great for upregulating a gut microbiome called Akkermansia and that’s true for insulin sensitization as well.
Matt: And at the same time berberine inhibits gram negative genesis from the liver, so you stop getting… and that’s one of the mechanisms of metformin stopping that elevated blood sugar in the morning is by stopping the liver from initiating that process to make more sugar.
Steve: So it’s pretty cool. So this is kind of like a break in the type 2 diabetes and if you’re trying to burn body fat. Now what we know from the studies [inaudible 00:21:22] is that you burn more fat when you haven’t eaten. It kind of makes sense. But there are other mechanisms at play here too. You mentioned ketone production. Ketones actually help regulate appetite. So over a 24 hour period, you actually eat less if you exercise fasted. And this [crosstalk 00:21:38].
Matt: Now we talking about generating your own ketone.
Matt: Only because we’re talking fat loss. If we we’re talking endurance, performance, neurotropic and brain and if I was wanting to be a highly performing entrepreneurial executive or anything like that-
Steve: You already are mate.
Matt: I actually needed to cough then not [inaudible 00:22:01] your bullshit. But the funny thing is… what were we talking about? Fat loss, you have a really cool opportunity to make your own ketones out of your stored body fat. I just don’t want people to think that if we were to take some exogenous ketones before doing fasted exercise that it’s still called fasted exercise, it’s not.
Elizma: No, it’s not.
Matt: Suddenly you’ve given yourself a fuel, same would be if you take branched-chain amino acids before, if you were to take anything of those things that have a insulin effect. Anything that’s got a base of like a modified starch that we might use as a filler that you don’t absorb or even a lot of these starchy fibrous compounds, the body still thinks there’s carbs.
We got the sweet taste buds on the tongue that pick up on that, those same receptors are in the pancreas and inside our body on fat cells that react to intravenous sugar that will hold back on the fat. So this is not just sweet taste and gut, it’s a systemic signaling to say, “I think you just ate some carbs.”
So we don’t want to bring those carbs in and then put them into our fat while we burn our stored carbs and bla bla bla. Let’s just wait for the blood sugar to come up and then make the decision of whether we’re going down a fat burning cycle or a carb burning cycle. So that’s why it’s important before fasted exercise to look at your supplementation.
We made a product called Amp-V that’s based on oils, and I flavored it up with essential oils because I just wanted to dodge anything that had a molecular structure that resembled a potential carb. And the whole purpose of that is to little bit of that to activate these PPAR receptors. And through that mechanism drive AMPK. I wasn’t allowed to call it AMPK, so we called it Amp-V. Anyway, just a little bit of an insight into the mind of a genius [crosstalk 00:23:49].
Elizma: [crosstalk 00:23:49].
Steve: [crosstalk 00:23:49].
Matt: And also then I had in the back of my mind that a lot of the research that I did on that was revolving around the Mediterranean paradox.
Elizma: Ah, interesting.
Matt: So I had a Mediterranean paradox vinegarette.
Elizma: There you go.
Steve: Ah man, I didn’t know that either.
Matt: A lot of it started on this vinegarette concept. Because I was looking again with the Mediterranean paradox, and a lot of that Mediterranean paradox about how those guys can have the obesity but not heart disease. A lot of that was revolved around a combination of events. PPAR receptor activation through the good oils and all that sort of stuff. But mainly being calm and not having insulin and cortisol floating around at the same time.
So when you do have something that stimulates insulin, you don’t really want a high level of cortisol from stress, because that contributes to the insulin resistance. So if you eat, have your insulin spike and then relax, and have a siesta and chill out, and the cortisol drops. All of a sudden your insulin resistance disappears, all of a sudden you’re not getting…
Now the same concept of a morning training. If I’ve got a natural spike of cortisol first thing in the morning, I do not want to combine that with a natural spike of insulin. I’m more likely to create an insulin resistance scenario to start my day. So you imagine this, we get up in the morning, a very low blood sugar, hopefully unless we’ve got some fatty liver and some inflamed liver, elevated sugar, early signs of type 2 diabetes and normally we should have good low fasting blood sugar. There should be no bloody insulin. There should be no insulin signaling that there’s more sugar coming and that sort of stuff.
So we should be able to, in theory, be able to go through and burn what’s available and not go into the storage sites. The problem is is if you were to combine an insulin spike with your normal morning cortisol spike, you can get an exaggerated release of insulin which can cause a reactive hypoglycemia. Which can create this vicious cycle of carbs and insulin, up and down, and up and down. And that’s your day. Your appetite and your satiety and your cravings are responding to ratios between insulin and blood glucose that your body has no other way of dealing with other than binding up the insulin to deactivate it or giving some carbs to satisfy that craving.
That’s a big part of it. And also that the simple theory of we’ve got residual shitty unburnt fuel in our cells. Because while we’re not moving at night, our circulation’s not good, we don’t get as much oxidation in our tissue. Now if we, for anyone out there that’s into cars and I’m not into cars so this is probably a bad person to be doing the analogy but, in a car that has incomplete combustion that’s not getting enough oxygen to go into the fuel, they build up a lot of waste. Typically a car will blow smoke which we can’t do. I’ve seen Grant come close though.
Normally what happens is, you end up with shit in the carbie in the car and you blow on out all the smoke but for us, this shit in the carbie and this waste that we would normally blow out through the exhaust. That’s our organic acids, that’s our metabolic waste that’s clogging up our Krebs cycles and energy pathways. That’s the whole thing we’re talking about hey, Elizma. Get and clear this sort of stuff out. And the mechanisms for that is deplete the fuel that’s there, activate the AMPK.
And simplifying for people that want to know what AMPK does, it’s the opposite to mTOR. Our muscle building group that listens through usually well versed with mTOR’s ability to build muscle, but AMPK is the opposite. And often looked as the enemy to the body builder because one’s a burner and one’s a builder. But honestly in this phase of your day, this is when you want to be burning.
Steve: And mTOR-
Matt: And burn it all off, and then up-regulate all the pathways for the after burn, keep that good going and then you can get into your calories surplus and your training for your mTOR activation in other sections of the day and it’ll be more efficient.
Steve: Yes, and mTOR is, for those of you who don’t know, mammalian target of rapamycin complex 1 and it’s a growth thing. But you mentioned some very interesting things here. You mentioned things about exercise depleted. Now what if you’re doing… and people thinking but don’t you need carbs for energy? For example, let’s pick an extreme event say marathon running. You’re from South Africa, home of the Comrades run the famous-
Elizma: That’s right yes.
Steve: And I believe that there’s some experts over there talking about, believe it or not restricting carbohydrates dramatically from the diet from marathon runners, the famous doctor over there. Do you want to take us through what happened to that story?
Elizma: Yes. Doctor Tim Noakes who is pretty much the sports guru in South Africa for many many years. I’ve got all of his books, like big books from when I was a teenager. I’ve read everything that he was saying. And he advised a lot on the marathon runners over there. And it always that old thought that you’ve got to carb load before a marathons. Today we know it as carb loading. And then a couple of years ago, I can’t remember exactly how long, he switched his theory because he went on a ketogenic diet, and he lost a lot of weight.
Matt: It’s a very low carb diet.
Elizma: It’s a very low carb diet, yes. So he then started putting marathon runners on this diet which sort of went completely against what the norm was and what the Dietetic Society was recommending. But the marathon runners were just doing personal bests, they all improved their times. And at some point the Medical Board and the Dietetics Association of South Africa took him to court and they wanted him to be struck off because they said, “you can’t give this kind of advice, it’s not scientifically proven, yada yada yada.” And he pretty much s-
Matt: [inaudible 00:29:22] me out there, look at the marathon running’s not a disease-
Elizma: It’s not a disease. I know.
Matt: Probably a mental disorder.
Steve: Yeah, probably is a bit of a disease.
Matt: Possibly, but-
Elizma: Exactly. So he just said, oh bring it on. I’ve got the studies to prove it. So it was a world wide televised court case. He had stacks and stacks of scientific papers, flew in experts from all over the world, Germany. Who supported him and he won the case. So pretty much proved that it had scientific validation to it. But it’s sort of laughable that he had to go through-
Matt: They got better.
Steve: I don’t understand that.
Matt: They ran better.
Elizma: They ran better.
Steve: Oh no, that’s no good.
Elizma: No one died. So what’s the big deal?
Matt: The sugar lobby doesn’t control our recreational activities as well do they?
Steve: You never know.
Steve: It’s funny because a ketogenic diet is a high fat diet, and a high fat diet stimulates bile release from the gall bladder.
Steve: Now, I believe there’s some interesting stuff about… we love bile here, we love bile on this show. Now bile stimulates certain chemicals called PPARs in the body-
Elizma: Yes and it does so through the FXR receptor or the Farnesoid X receptor, so bile acids will bind to the Farnesoid X receptor and that triggers or upregulates PPARs.
Matt: PPARs yes, there’s three of those.
Elizma: That’s right. And then the PPARs will have all the added benefits of upregulating genes and enzymes involved in breaking down fats, I think even in lipogenesis, fatty acid transport, fatty acid oxidation, all of that.
Matt: Even glucose burning.
Elizma: Glucose burning so it upregulates that whole system. There’s also fatty acids that can stimulate PPARs as well. Like the oil product that ATP signs have, that will stimulate PPARs. I think CLAs-
Matt: CLAs. So in the Amp-V we’ve got the pomegranate seed oil, it has the conjugated linolenic acids, so it’s the CLNA.
Elizma: Oh, yes, yes.
Matt: It goes through, it has very powerful PPAR affected driving fatty acid oxidation and changing lipid profiles. Getting the body to burn some fat. And then it actually gets converted to CLA and does it all again through the CLA mechanisms again. So it’s such a really cool concept. The PPAR receptors, again if you’re in that fasting state and you activate the PPAR receptors, it’s basically telling the body, “we need some fuel. We need some fuel and we’re going to burn this stuff.”
If you’re in a carbohydrate excess it can use certain PPAR receptors that will modify and drag in the sugar. And a lot of those PPAR receptors are affect your bladder, found in herbs and that sort of stuff which happen to be carbohydrate like material. And a lot of the oily stuff seem to activate the PPAR receptors that preferentially drive oil burning. So it’s kind of cool and then you have a look at the bile [crosstalk 00:32:07].
Elizma: That’s interesting.
Matt: And then you’ll be able to look at the fact that bile is secreted in response to oil hitting the duodenum.
Matt: So the oil hits the duodenum, the bile comes out in response to the oil, not in response normally to acid or pH or enzyme aculates, the presence of oil would determine the bile. The bile comes out with the oil, it’s also, “men there’s fat everywhere, let’s just burn some of this shit off.”
Elizma: Yeah. So it makes you think, sorry Steve, about the HCG diet. How many people are on low fat diets?
Steve: HCG is the [crosstalk 00:32:34].
Elizma: So you don’t get that bile release.
Matt: Yeah, the theory of the HCG diet is what? 500 calories a day and sorry let me go back a step. The theory of the HCG diet is if you’re starving and pregnant, your body will create some fuel. And so it’s basically saying, “let’s resemble starving pregnant people.” By making them starve and giving them pregnancy hormone and then hopefully they access this cellulite deposits on their buttox that’s reserved for starving pregnant people. Even the blokes.
Steve: Yep, and it’s really interesting because the current thinking in Australia too is to have a low fat diet to reduce calories, to burn more fat. Now what’s your take on a high carbohydrate, low fat diet as currently prescribed in a lot of [crosstalk 00:33:17].
Matt: The Heart Association.
Steve: Yeah, Heart Association diet and that sort of thing. What’s your take on that. Given what we’ve just talked about about ketogenic diets, fat burning bile, what’s your take on a lot of that [inaudible 00:33:25].
Elizma: Well if you follow a high carb, low fat diet, all that’s really going to happen is you’re going to have all that carbohydrates or glucose into the mitochondria, and from there if you look at the mitochondrial cycle, it’s like a spinning wheel. And all of that carbs that goes into the mitochondrial cycle, it spits out citrate, citrate leaves the mitochondria and that can go into fat or cholesterol formation. You know cholesterol is very important, but the point is that all that glucose and carbs can be turned into fat. So the whole concept of, “oh well you need to lower your cholesterol levels so stop eating fat,” is really garbage, because it’s more about you need to cut down on your carbohydrates. Because it’s the carbs that turns into the fats that then turns into fatty liver. So-
Matt: And from carbs we can only make a certain types of fat, including the-
Elizma: That’s right. It’s the palmitate fats-
Steve: Palmitic acid which is the C16-
Matt: Which is the bad one.
Elizma: That’s the bad one.
Steve: It’s a long chain saturated fat that’s very dangerous for the body and farmers utilize this when they give beef cattle, because mammals produce this fat as well, all mammals, we’re mammals. And give their high grain diet and grains cause marbling of fat in the cow’s meat. So it gives the cows fatty bodies throughout their tissues so you get this great marbled beef like Wagyu beef. But we don’t want to be marbled, do we?
Steve: Because if we marble our coronary arteries-
Matt: Let’s say [inaudible 00:34:46], well that’s what we’re talking about, fatty residual fat stuck within our muscle tissue. That’s the whole point of burning that off because that’s when you get insulin resistant [crosstalk 00:34:54].
Steve: [crosstalk 00:34:55] coronary arteries.
Steve: And then you get a heart attack which is the biggest killer in Australia still.
Matt: Yeah, absolutely.
Steve: You know there’s wards in hospitals dedicated to people who have had this problem, that have marbled themselves.
Matt: So then consider, you’ve mentioned it before how important cholesterol and those sort of things are. So we need good fats, but we need a variety of all different types of oils, saturated, unsaturated, and all that sort of stuff to fill in the gaps. If you don’t consume enough oil to do the oily stuff, your body will make it. But if it’s forced to make it out of your own carbs, then it can only make palmitic acid which is the one that’s going to cause the hardening in the arteries, the marbling of the meats. Palmitic acid is extremely important for cellular structures. We need some solid cellular structures.
Elizma: Everything in moderation.
Matt: But if that’s the only one you can make and you’re not eating the good oils, then you got a really shitty oil balance.
Steve: And just to clarify that. That’s a saturated fat. Not all saturated fats are bad. Like these medium chain triglycerides, they’re all saturates and they’re wonderfully healthy for your body. The short chain fatty acids made from soluble fiber when you eat your apple is like butyric acid, propionic, valeric acid, they’re saturated, they’re very good for your health. There’s no question of those, and exercise in fact increases the microbiome to a level to make more butyrates. Which is extraordinarily healthy for insulin sensitivity. We upregulate a bug called Akkermansia in our gut when we exercise, and that’s one of the mechanisms by which berberine and metformin work. By the way in head to head study, berberine was slightly more effective than metformin at producing Akkermansia in the gut.
Matt: And Akkermansia is really cool, because Akkermansia is a bug that feeds on carbon in the mucus. So when we’re burning fat, when we’re exercising, when we’re panting, we actually start building up a lot more carbon in the mucus and the Akkermansia picks up on that and goes, “oh man, this person’s doing stuff. Let’s help them burn some fuel, let’s help give them energy.” So instead of other bugs that might be talking about calorie yield, and trying to bulk you up and that sort of stuff. The Akkermansia is going, “this person’s busy, let’s help them.” And it helps to liberate and that controls your appetite, your satiety, really helps with performance and that sort of stuff. And it thrives on fat burning and exercise.
Steve: Yeah, the Akkermansia produces mucus of course and this is why you get a good mucus coating in your lungs too when you exercise.
Matt: Hey, does fasted exercise induce bile flow as well? Because you know we’re just talking about bile… is there any links in there?
Elizma: I mean there’s-
Matt: It is interesting, we should talk more about this.
Elizma: There is other things that could stimulate bile, right? Apart from the fat. Like thyroid hormone, T4, will stimulate the sphincter of Oddi to relax and that allows bile to flow out. So I’m thinking if you’re stimulating your metabolism, it could be a thyroid thing.
Matt: Its funny, what is bile anyway? If we’re looking at bile pigments and fats, and all the toxins and-
Elizma: Well it consists of bile acids, it consist of phospholipids, there’s electrolytes in there, there’s water in there.
Steve: Surfactants, all sorts of things.
Matt: So the fat that’s in our liver, so when we’re talking about these-
Matt: Fatty livers, we’re talking about marbling, you’ve mentioned the marbling in the meat. We see marbling through the liver as well. And that of course makes a liver not work real well. And that fat that’s in that liver that contributes to insulin resistance, they call it the… Now once you eventually convince your doctor you’re not an alcoholic, and they start looking for other causes of your fatty liver. Because even the fact that they call it a non-alcoholic fatty liver, I mean, seriously there’s so many other causes.
Steve: And then you know you found-
Matt: I mean there’s so many other causes but the assumption is that we’re all alcoholics if you get raised liver enzymes. The thing is with this fatty liver, that’s a big chunk of fuel sitting in an organ that needs to be clean. The liver it’s really important that we clear out that because that fatty liver, that’s not just unburnt fat. That’s the fat soluble toxins, that’s all that other way.
So this process of doing fasted cardio, not only can we burn the stuff out of the skeletal muscle, we can start clearing out some of that marbling through that whole muscle bundle. We can start clearing a lot of that rubbish, but also through hepatothermic abilities. We can actually start burning some of that stored fat within the liver, that generates heat in the process called hepatothermic in that instance because hepato for liver and thermic for the generation of the heat.
And then the byproduct is actually, usually increased bile production, and better flow of bile, and less likely to get gall stones and all that sort of stuff.
Elizma: That’s right. Because gall stones happens when the cholesterol portion of the bile becomes too much. So it’s like it precipitates and that’s what creates all of those issues. And that’s usually because the other ingredients like the bile acids or the phospholipids become less, and the cholesterol becomes more. What’s interesting though is that bile itself has like a feedback mechanism that stops, I’m trying to remember correctly but I think it will sort of like improve that whole process of less cholesterol going into the bile. So again, it feeds on itself that whole mechanism. But that’s usually because that cholesterol portion becomes too big. And then we have to look at why is there not a big enough phospholipid portion, and that’s usually goes back to the methylation cycle. So you can work all of these-
Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Steve: [inaudible 00:40:12] a lot of people don’t realize that their cholesterol is made in the liver, it’s about 80% of your cholesterol is made in your liver. If you’re a vegan, 100%. But you get it through your diet a little bit but it’s mostly made in your liver.
Matt: It’s mostly is, yeah.
Steve: It’s made in your liver to make your sex hormones and your cortisols and all these other wonderful hormones and if you’re not using your hormones to stress yourself out or do a bit of exercise, it builds up. Because it makes LDL cholesterol, it makes the, we’ll call it the bad cholesterol, I don’t think it’s bad, it’s the cholesterol that shifts it to your arteries peripheral things to make your hormones. That’s what it does. And then of course the HDL, it drops off some fats there to make your hormones, and HDL brings it back. And that’s all it does. It’s [crosstalk 00:40:50].
Elizma: Look, they’re just transporter molecules really.
Steve: Yeah, they’re transporter molecules.
Elizma: It’s all it is.
Matt: You know when you see a classic feature, after people have had a hysterectomy or after people have gone into menopause, you often see the gall stones, all of a sudden they get the gall bladder problems and the cholesterol problems.
Elizma: And the reason is, that’s an interesting thing you bring that up, is because estrogen is needed to activate, I think it’s the CYP-17A enzyme, and that is actually to take that cholesterol and turn it into bile. And so if you don’t have the estrogen-
Steve: [crosstalk 00:41:20] reverse transport-
Elizma: What happens now is the cholesterol doesn’t go into bile, so women who go into menopause will have less bile production, more cholesterol build up so they get fatty liver, they get SIBO, they get constipation.
Matt: And gall stones.
Elizma: And gall stones.
Matt: And then they finally got low hormones, high cholesterol.
Steve: That’s exactly right.
Matt: Yeah, and then what’s worst thing that you can do, that is to exogenous hormone, because then a message goes back saying, “well, we still don’t need that cholesterol to make hormones.”
Steve: It’s very scary because of course the biggest selling drug in Australia is an anti-cholesterol drug which also-
Elizma: Statin, yeah.
Steve: Which stuffs up your mitochondria because of the CoQ10 levels downregulation. So can you imagine, and I’ll call a middle aged person in their 50s a menopausal woman or andropausal man on Statin drugs, we all are well most people my age are on them, and their mitochondria is low. And they’re the people that need to exercise. So these are the people that are getting diabetes, these are the people that are getting all these problems, usually an 18 year old hasn’t got these problems. And you say to them, “okay, get up and go and exercise.” And they go, “I’m too tired. My muscles are sore.”
Matt: And my recovery is terrible. And they’re not lying. And some of those people are actually… the glugginess in the blood, and the poor energy production and the poor recovery, those guys are often waking up with the same amount of metabolic waste in their body, aches and pains just from sleeping as you may have had from running a marathon. They build up the same waste-
Steve: [crosstalk 00:42:45] shit after a marathon.
Matt: They feel the same, and often… so they’re not lying when they say I’m tired and my recovery, it’s just a matter of saying well your 60 to 70% VO2 max is going to be very different to mine. So for you we might need to get a watch, we might need to look at your heart rate. For you it might be a steady walk or it might be a calm walk for a period of time and then as your fitness levels build up your going and… everyone’s got a different starting point, so it’s really important to go through and try to work out how to get it. Because the last thing we want to do is manifest a significant amount of stress. We don’t want them to be able to get up the next morning and be too sore to move. So that’s a whole thing with the intensity of training and the perception of stress.
So you might find that you might want to start off real low, but then you might find after a period of time that’s not even touching the sides. Then you want to get into that high intensity. So we might be presenting data to say cardio exercise is not as good for this across the population as resistance and resistance may not be as good as high intensity. But this is where we’re saying what works for you at your stage get in, do something just get started, it’s not even an option it’s compulsory. Just get started, clear the way-
Elizma: At least do something.
Matt: And then get moving. We always talk about managing what you measure. So it’s really important to go through and we talk about intensity but I know what I would find intense would be very different to what you guys would find intense. Just because of different levels of fitness and body compositions and that sort of stuff. So get in and do it, because it’s just a matter of getting it moving. But just work within your range. Because you don’t have to kill yourself with this. And you’re never going to fix any of these things in a week.
Elizma: No, no, no.
Matt: So it’ll be no good killing yourself in a week. If we were to get up in the morning, the blood sugar is low, we’re all ready to go, could I have a coffee?
Elizma: Yeah, it depends on who you talk to. Like some experts have said that’s okay, you can have a black coffee. Others have said, no that will break a fast. I don’t know how technical one has to go on that.
Matt: There’s one theory. I don’t think cortisol’s going to break a fast, because our cortisol is happening when we wake up.
Elizma: That’s right.
Matt: My thinking around breaking a fast would be revolving around-
Elizma: The sugar or the dairy.
Matt: Insulin. Insulin [crosstalk 00:45:02], so if you were to have a black coffee with an oil in it. Like a black coffee with Amp-V or the butter, or whatever, the bulletproof coffees sort of things or the MCTs or just a straight black coffee or something like that. We’re going to get the cortisol. But we shouldn’t get significant changes to insulin, thereby altering.
Now to also put it in perspective, because I know, I know there’s people out there right now that’s said, “oh, they mentioned insulin again. And if I was to have an insulin secretion without sugar and then I will die into a coma.” That’s what some people believe. Now we’re talking about not injecting insulin, and missing a meal. We’re actually talking about when the sweetness, we’re talking about the perception that your body… you’ve got a limited window to get into burning really quickly, or burning something. If we confuse the body by tricking it into thinking sugar’s coming, but there’s not sugar coming. We’ve just got a little hurdle to overcome.
Some people that will be totally negligible. They’ll experience it, but not feel it. And some people have got such and amazing physique that it’s not noticeable for them. Other people that are stuck with an insulin resistant syndrome, fatty liver, for them it’s statistically significant. So across a population we might look at insulin from sweetness, or insulin from modified starches and things like that. Cross the population not a big deal. But within small groups that are resistant to your diet and exercise strategies, that are really struggling.
People like my mom for example, that were struggling with things like fatty liver, wanting to go for a morning walk, went into the local supplement store and sold on to a really high stim pre-workout to take before going for a morning walk. And I suggested, “look, mom, you actually really enjoy your coffee, you don’t need to take a cake flavored fandy fairy floss stimulant to go for your morning walk on the beach.” And in that instance I was trying to explain to her that the sweetness and it’s really important. So for her we give the black coffee with a bit of Amp-V because it tastes like [inaudible 00:47:07] which she loves and then all of a sudden she’s off to go.
So what are the other things that you would not do? If we did branched chain amino acids, that would be a bad idea because that’s going to be a fuel.
Elizma: Yeah, because it’s also insulinogenic.
Matt: Too much fat. Like if you had too much fat, you’re going to be burning that as well.
Elizma: That’s right. So the ketogenic diet where people sometimes go a little bit overboard with it. Everything is logic and common sense. Obviously you just want to eat enough fat to give you the satiety, but you still want to don’t go overboard with it because you want your body to burn it’s own fat and not use that as a fuel source.
Steve: Of course.
Matt: In the Amp-V, we only have about half a gram or so of the MCT, so in a two ml serve, we’ve got less than a gram of MCTs, it’s about 500 milligrams of active MCTs in there. And everyone’s in there going, “well that’s nothing,” because in the studies where they use 10 grams of MCT, it didn’t even show fat loss. And you’re like, “no, that’s not in there as an alternative source of fuel to your body fat,” and I don’t understand how supplying an alternative source of fuel to your body fat would enhance fat burning anyway.
So just to be aware that you can have too much of fat, and in that instance you’re going to be burning that fat and if you don’t burn that fat it’s going to go somewhere. But the benefit of MCT it’s easier to burn and less likely to store. But if you took a big dose of that that fueled your exercise and more, you’re going to make a lot of ketones, you’ll be peeing colors on the stick. But that doesn’t mean you’re fat burning, it means that you’ve got ketones. Which is great if you’re an epileptic child. But if you’re not, and your goal was fat loss, well that didn’t help you at all.
So too much any fuel, whether it’s an added protein or whether it’s a fat, so even… We’ve talked about restricting carbs, so I just want everyone to know that restricting carbs, restricting sweeteners and modified starches will help you to get into a fasted exercise but if you overload with amino acids or fats, then you’re not fasting.
Steve: You know what fat you want to burn, the stuff round here or the stuff around your heart.
Elizma: The organ fat.
Matt: Or the stuff out of my bottle that I just added to my coffee. That’s the point.
Steve: Yes, yeah. I know. It’s kind of weird, but I wanted to answer a question you guys asked before about, does exercise stimulate bile flow? And I can answer that in terms of mice.
Matt: I asked that ages ago. Have I been talking this whole time and you didn’t interrupt me?
Steve: Yeah, yeah. I just waiting for you to finish.
Matt: Bloody hell, sorry man.
Steve: That’s all right. That’s all right. There was a study done on hypocholesterolemic mice. And they gave them a treadmill and they measured their fecal output, and they had an increased bile flow.
Matt: Yeah, wow.
Steve: So you do increase bile flow from exercise, here’s the paper here [crosstalk 00:49:44].
Matt: Or treadmills give you the shits.
Steve: Yeah. That’s pretty much it. But of course that regulates the microbiome, the exercise regulates the microbiome which has all these benefits that are really too many to read out.
Matt: Can we do our next podcast on bile?
Elizma: Yeah. It would be awesome.
Matt: I want to do the next one on bile. I know we’ve got a list of things that people want, but I want bile.
Steve: We can call it, What Makes Your Poo Brown?
Elizma: [inaudible 00:50:08].
Steve: How’s that for attracting listeners?
Matt: Oh it’s good but what if you’re going over microbiome, dead are the microbiome and then it’s going to make your poo yellow, that’s a terrible one.
Steve: Terrible [inaudible 00:50:17].
Matt: My poo’s pale, where’s my bile?
Steve: It’s great. Now some other fasted cardio when you go for your walk on the beach is you get higher testosterone secretion, higher human growth hormone secretion, and one more, higher adrenaline release. When you exercise fasted.
Matt: Oh, wow. Yeah, cool.
Steve: So the adrenaline of course stimulates the beta adrenoceptors on the fat cells, to burn more fat. That’s the mechanism by which you burn more fat.
Matt: Now I can justify my coffee.
Matt: Phosphodiesterase type 2 inhibition, will preserve the cyclic AMP that your adrenaline is going to stimulate and keep us in that nice driving of that AMP. I’m happy with that.
Steve: I give Beck her coffee every morning before she goes to gym, it’s my wife, and she loves it. It gives her a bit of a pep too. And remember we’re dealing with these things called humans. If we’re training machines, then we’d press the button and say, “go exercise.” And they’d do it. But humans they kind of go, “oh, but I’m so tired in the morning. I’m not used to…” or have you ever heard people calling themselves a other species? Like they say, “but I’m a night owl.” Have you ever heard someone say that about themselves? “Oh, I don’t exercise in the morning, I’m a night owl.”
Steve: You say, “well, you’re actually a human.” And humans have high cortisol in the morning. They’re supposed to go out and hunt and gather their food first thing in the morning.
Matt: I often do exercise with bare feet.
Steve: Yeah, same thing.
Elizma: Yeah, great.
Matt: I’m one of those people.
Elizma: You’re one of those people.
Matt: So human feet, I’m using human feet tomorrow.
Steve: Exactly. That’s quite weird. But the human body’s evolved to… you didn’t wake up with a fridge in your cave. You had to go and get your foods. So it’s not the end of the world to exercise fasted. That’s not a stress.
Elizma: It’s like we have this fear of starving. I will often get confused, why are we so worried about not eating enough? Because you’re right. Like tribes coming from Africa, they would often go for days without eating, and then they catch the buck and then they gorged themselves because that then fuels their body for the next couple of days. Now obviously we don’t have to do that, but it’s not… we get this fear of starving. And I just don’t understand that in modern day century.
Steve: Or you’ve got to eat every two hours and you’ve got to eat… and one of the last patients I’ve seen before I started here which was why I’m not in practice any more. They-
Matt: I hope that person’s not listening. He’s just thinking, “I’ve wrecked his career? What?”
Steve: I’m not going to mention your name. They brought their personal trainer in and I talked to them about fasted exercise, and they were saying, “oh, you’ve got to have branched chain amino acids before you exercise, or you catabolize your muscles.” Well we now know the studies with the higher testosterone, growth hormone, and all these sort of releases, you actually don’t lose muscle. You don’t break down muscle if you’re using it. You break down your fat. You get higher beta-oxidation of fats and carbohydrate, you don’t break down muscle if you’re using it. You stress muscle which then repairs, and that’s the idea of it.
Matt: And that’s when we can talk under-recovery as well. So you’re more likely to have under-recovery than overtraining. We can actually do things to support the extra needs that you have, but in the right time. Now I remember there was a phase two where we always talked about utilizing that glycogen window. That we had this window immediately after exercise that we can replenish our glycogen, but outside that window…
Elizma: Yeah I remember that.
Matt: Now in recent years I’ve totally changed my mind because I now look at exercise more about creating the depleted state and creating that change from the stress that needs us to recover to be stronger and that sort of stuff. That I think that staying glycogen depleted is more important. Definitely for fat loss. But we always had that school of thought that if we go low carb, but then all of your carbs you’re going to have have it immediately after training to quickly replenish your glycogen. To preserve your muscle so you’re not losing your muscle so you can just keep burning fat. But the reality is it’s the depleted muscle that will burn the fat. So without the depleted muscle, we’re not going to get into the fat burning.
Elizma: That’s right. And also it’s to do with mitochondrial fitness as well. So that depleted state… if you keep the mitochondria in a kind of depleted state, we’re upregulating NAD, the two redox signals, NADH and NAD, your going to-
Steve: That’s nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide hydrogen for those who want-
Matt: For those taking notes.
Elizma: So NADH is essentially food or fuel or electrons. And NAD is when it’s spent.
Steve: Yeah, lost.
Elizma: So when you upregulate that NAD as opposed to NADH, because NADH will go up if you eat, overeat, alcohol, all of that kind of stuff. So if you fast or exercise, do fasted exercise, the NADH drops, the NAD goes up. Because you’re spending all of those electrons. And NAD is your longevity. That’s what promotes longevity. It switches on the search genes and everything else. And it creates that mitochondrial fitness.
Matt: That biogenesis? Do we make more mitochondria then?
Elizma: I think-
Steve: You can, yeah, [crosstalk 00:55:08] exercise.
Matt: So if you exercise in a depleted state, especially depleted of [inaudible 00:55:12].
Elizma: Because you’re stressing it.
Matt: You make more mitochondria, per cell.
Steve: You do.
Matt: And that more mitochondrial density is really important for strength and longevity, all those sort of aspects.
Elizma: And increasing your metabolism.
Steve: And you mentioned genes, so let’s talk about genes. Fasted exercise increases fat burning genes in your body. And they upregulate, and they upregulate for a long time. And you’re talking about NADH and that sort of thing and the H is the proton that goes across the uncoupling proteins. So if you can increase uncoupling proteins, which we did a podcast on so I’ll just refer back to podcast number insert. Whichever, I know it was a hundred and something, that podcast we talked about uncoupling proteins and that proton, the H+ that you lose off the NADH with the H, you lose that that goes in your uncoupling protein which is free energy. It upregulates thermogenesis, and you burn fat for a longer period of time. So this fasted exercise is more than just burn fat while you exercise, it goes on with the genes and the uncoupling proteins throughout the whole day.
Matt: You know, it’s cool about what you just said. You know Subcut, so we have that transdermal product Subcut? Using that as a supplement before fasted exercise is actually a really good idea now you mention it. Because the concepts behind Subcut, of course it’s not oral it’s a cream, so we’re not worried about affecting the fasting state. The Fas colon increases cyclic-AMP directly. We talked about that before, phosphodiesterase inhibition preserving the cyclic-AMP, plus the beta-agonist activity increasing cycling-AMP further.
The Cirsium oligophyllum in there is almost exciting one, even though it’s only rat studies. But in that rat studies, they had a 23% decrease in subcutaneous fat at the site where they applied it. And the mechanism of action was increasing uncoupling protein activity and RNA. So not only did it increase activity of uncoupling protein but increased the capacity for those cells to have better thermogenesis in the long run by uncoupling protein.
So if you were to combine a transdermal Subcut activating your subcutaneous tissue. Because ultimately, most of the people that are going to a PT or someone about their body composition are talking about what they can see in the mirror or what someone said to them. And that’s subcutaneous fat.
Steve: Yeah, it’s the fat you can [crosstalk 00:57:26].
Matt: It’s the fat that’s just under the skin and that sort of stuff. That is the last thing to move when we do any sort of exercise. So if we’re in a depleted state, normally having just liberating stored fat into your bloodstream is not ideal if you’re not exercising. But if you were to have that ability to get into a routine of encouraging the release of subcutaneous adipocytes storage and the burning and that sort of stuff, then could actually be one of the main fueling factors of your fasted cardio. That’s a pretty cool little scenario.
Steve: The oral fats you can take a great… I put Subcut on before my run this morning because it liberates the fat around here. So it’s like I’ve eaten it, but while you’re exercising you’re burning the fat around here, you can actually perform better. And go further and that sort of thing. Because it’s not so much fasting any more because I’m eating this. If that makes sense. Normally if you exercise you eat a bit of this but with the Subcut it really-
Steve: It liberates more. It’s fantastic. [crosstalk 00:58:21].
Elizma: That’s amazing.
Matt: And then so the Amp-V internally, or the oils sort of stuff, basically before fasted exercise the only thing really I can think of… which is what we made Amp-V for it, but like a small amount of oil. You don’t want to do too much.
Steve: Two ml.
Matt: Because you don’t want to be fueling your exercise with the oil that you’ve drunk, but you want enough just to prime those PPAR receptors, to get that bile flowing, to get that liver moving, to allow that mitochondria to be activated but not fueled. Because then we can use that opportunity to burn the residual fuel out of our liver and out of our mitochondria, skeletal muscle. Create a but of a deficit so we can activate the GLUT4s, we activate the AMPK pathways. All of a sudden we’re primed to start our day. So when do I eat? How long? So I’ve gone and depleted all this stuff out, how long do you recon?
Steve: Million dollar question. It depends when you have to start work. So we have to think of practicality here, but you’ve got to fast as long as you can.
Matt: Well maybe you do, because I mean for our work we don’t care too much. People can make stuff up as they go really here. Like if you’re done, “oh, I feel like I’m really tired because I’m fasting,” or something. And we go, “good on you.” But ideally in like a perfect world, if everyone had an amazing boss like me, you wouldn’t be concerned about that sort of stuff. I can’t even say that with a straight face.
Steve: I was trying not to laugh.
Matt: Yeah. “You’re fired.” So would it be when you feel like shit? When you feel really sick? Or should people push through that?
Elizma: I don’t think people should push through things. I think they should start to listen to their body signals again. We just don’t listen to our body signals.
Steve: Eat when you’re hungry is what I like. But I got off my run this morning, I had a shower first, then I did some house work, and that sort of thing. And I put eating off a bit until a bit later then. Because I don’t run in the front door and go straight for the fridge and gorge. Because if you’re fat trained like we are and other people, you don’t-
Elizma: You don’t really get hungry.
Steve: You don’t get hungry.
Matt: You get energy from exercise.
Steve: Yeah, I feel great when I get home.
Elizma: Me too.
Steve: I do the vacuuming and everything. And just-
Matt: You should come to my place.
Steve: Oh, that’s about 40 ks, I don’t know.
Matt: Yeah, you’ll be able to do a shit load of it. Imagine the energy you’d have then.
Steve: Well you do. It’s like with a mate of mine when I work on his farm for a weekend or something, where I get injuries like that by the way doing fencing-
Matt: [crosstalk 01:00:43].
Steve: Yeah. Stick sticking out. But I go for a run in the morning and I can fence all day or I can chop wood all day. Yeah, yeah fencing.
Matt: Hand guard.
Steve: Because you get sore feet from running, because you run for 15 ks or whatever it is. But you don’t feel tired.
Elizma: No you don’t.
Steve: Because I’ve got plenty of fat on my body to last for weeks-
Matt: And he’s a fucking mental. You’re fucking mad.
Steve: Yeah, but I’m 50.
Matt: No one’s going to chase you for 15 ks. [inaudible 01:01:13].
Steve: If I can bring up the African connection. The African they had this thing called persistent hunters, where they chase an animal for hours on end until it keels over in the heat of the day, because remember animals can’t sweat because they’ve got a lot of hair, most animals. Because we can sweat because we haven’t got any hair at all, so we can adapt in the heat better so the animals can’t when they get to a certain temperature. And then the Africans kill them.
Matt: That’s cool. I’m a real [crosstalk 01:01:36] kick I said that.
Steve: It’s called persistent hunter.
Elizma: That’s good, that’s good all [crosstalk 01:01:41] system-
Matt: [crosstalk 01:01:41] fasting was a fouled hunting trip.
Steve: I know. It is. It is. So I guess what we’re going to get at here is the right about the eating, put it off as long as you can. Because you shouldn’t need to-
Matt: And if someone’s got an insulin resistance syndrome, so someone’s got a polycystic ovarian syndrome, if they’ve got metabolic syndrome, and all these cholesterols and stuff. That person then, if they were to strategize their meals to not replenish that carbs, if they kept themselves glycogen depleted at least for most of the day, then they’re going to keep the GLUT4 transporters active, they’re going to need less insulin.
Elizma: That’s right. When you’re insulin resistant or you have metabolic syndrome, they obviously not fat adapted. And so they will struggle in the beginning with intermittent fasting or anything like that. So they may be able to do fasted exercise but then have to eat pretty soon afterwards. Which is okay, but if you stick to like protein fats instead of carbs to just keep the insulin low, that should be enough to just take the hunger away and giving their bodies time to become fat adapted instead of going for the banana or the carbs and things like that. So you can do-
Steve: Or the five star rated Weet-Bix.
Matt: Yeah, and milo.
Elizma: That’s right.
Matt: Yeah, right.
Steve: But you’re absolutely right, there’s a published study in Sports Medicine that said the fasted state may improve more effective in improving insulin sensitivity or glycemic control in type two diabetic patients with insulin resistant. So this is a great recent study and it goes to say that they’re the people that really should do this.
Matt: I don’t know, I don’t read everything that goes out there, but the general consensus across the majority of the dietetic world, or the food pyramidy type of thing, is low GI… like if I was to say I’ve got an insulin resistance syndrome, PCOS and that sort of stuff, it would be, “eat low GI carbohydrates every three hours.” It’s like eating the breakfast cereals, eating all that sort of stuff.
Steve: Yeah, I know. It is true, it’s what they say.
Elizma: Yeah. Well how good is that working for everyone?
Matt: Exactly, yeah.
Elizma: So look at the big-
Matt: We’ve been doing it for 50 years now.
Steve: It’s a monumental failure that approach because we’re now fatter than we’ve ever been in Australia.
Matt: It doesn’t make sense. Like I mean we’re talking about they’re full of carbs to the point that their blood sugar levels are going up. So let’s eat carbs every three hours. Even a low glycemic… I mean, I don’t know, if I’ve got a wheelbarrow of sugar, that word I was about to say that, but if I’ve got a wheelbarrow of sugar that’s low GI, and I’ve got a wheelbarrow of sugar that’s high GI. I’ve got a wheelbarrow of sugar.
Elizma: That’s right. It’s still going to stimulate an insulin response.
Matt: I’ve got two fucking wheelbarrows of sugar now. Look at me. Which one do I eat? Does it matter? I mean, one of them is going to stimulate the insulin, but the other one is going to still give me the same amount of sugar.
Steve: Of course. And well you know, you could say one’s fructose with a GI of 20, and glucose a GI of 100. It’s still all turns into sugar.
Elizma: Yup. And also if you do the regular eating like every three hours like we’ve always been told, you’re constantly keeping your insulin there. Because it’s supposed to-
Matt: Insulin, but not sugar. Because if we’re over secreting our insulin, if we’re getting reactive hypos-
Elizma: That’s right.
Matt: And then when we go reactive hypo… when normally your blood sugar would drop without insulin, so if your blood sugar drops but your insulin stays high, the brain is still saying, “there’s got to be sugar somewhere.” Or even if it doesn’t it says, “man, I’ve already got all my machinery and everything ready for sugar burning, I would rather you break down some muscle or liver to give me the sugar than actually burn fat.”
Elizma: That’s right. Because it’ll either trigger cravings for sugar because your blood sugar levels have dropped and your body says, “I need sugar.” And if you’re able to push through that, then your body will just break down your muscle.
Matt: And for those people who want to know what that feels like, it’s when you have that big meal, you’ve just eaten a meal and then you crave something sweet. You’re thinking, “I can’t function unless I have a chocolate and a coffee right now,” or something.
Steve: Or some ice cream. It’s a trained-
Matt: That need for the sweets immediately after wheel… what the fuck is wrong with my mouth? Or immediately after your meal, not your wheel.
Steve: Not your wheel.
Matt: It’s a wheel. Now I want a wagon wheel after lunch. No so this is the point. So that’s a good sign of insulin resistance and you also get quite angry. People that have got a high insulin with low blood sugar, it’s one of those irrational things so I’m hangry right now. So you feed me, and it better be exactly what I want or I’m going to spit the dummy.
Elizma: That’s right.
Steve: And the other reason to exercise-
Matt: Michael Gally.
Steve: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you listening to this? He’s a big guy.
Matt: That’s actually be a good quiz, see if the sales reps listen. Michael Gally is hangry. If anyone’s ever traveled with Mic, feed him.
Steve: He’s pretty… and his diet is sometimes questionable, but he maintains it. I don’t know how he does it.
Matt: Oh he’s fucking brilliant.
Steve: Micro [crosstalk 01:06:27].
Steve: He’s brilliant.
Matt: Hangry. He’s hangry.
Steve: So we’ve summarized if you want to get up exercise, do it first for another reason is because you get it out of the way. Your not going to-
Elizma: Yes, you don’t think of excuses. Like I’m one of those people, I have to exercise first thing in the morning otherwise it’s not happening. Because the whole day I think of excuses not to exercise. The other thing that’s also important is, we talk about high intensity interval training and all this stuff and we’re talking about resistance training, you don’t have to be an athlete, you don’t have to go to a gym.
It can be really as simple as waking up in the morning, going for a walk, whether it’s like 30 minutes to an hour, and within that walk you can sort of fit little bits and pieces in. So that’s what I sometimes do. I go on a long walk and I will just stop and do 10 pushups. And then I’ll walk a little bit further and I’ll do burpees or what have you. Or I get to stairs and I just run up the stairs. So you can do like simple little things like that to stimulate those AMPK mechanisms and things like that.
Matt: And you get a better bang for your buck when you don’t have that fitness anyway. Like you’ll actually, for the people with a lower of level of fitness they’re burning a lot more. Things are a lot harder. You never forget the swimmers, I always used to see this swimmers that always used to have a lot of overweight swimmers and the people that just do the regular swimming. And you can just see their fitness gets to a point that they can just now swim for an hour and their body adapts through insulation now. Buoyancy and insulation where you always preserve a little bit of fat and you just work on your cardiovascular fitness. You’re not burning anything any more. You just jump backwards and forwards. So doing things that are hard. So once you get to a point where something’s quite easy, you might want to change it.
Also, I don’t know if this is still true guys, if you’ve read anything about this. But there used to be that school of thought that we burn more fat in the morning and we build more muscle in the afternoon. So is there anything there, because I always looked at fasting cardio while the cortisol’s high and the insulin’s low, we just go through and get things moving. Then in the afternoon I can do an insulin spike with low cortisol and we can build some muscle. Is that a sound theory?
Elizma: Yeah, I know about that and it could be reasons… in my opinion that would be more to do with circadian rhythms like for instance human growth hormone, which I think is higher at night time. So it may be more to do with those circadian rhythms and why certain exercise might be better.
Matt: It’s kind of cool though, still those papers suggest that we can do a fasted exercise in the morning, it’s going to increase or growth hormone and androgens and that sort of stuff later on in the day then with some fuel. When we get into a bit of a calorie surplus then we can activate mTOR. Do you recon that it’s feasible to think that we can have a phase of the day where we’re burning fat and then a phase of the day where we’re burning muscle?
Elizma: Oh yes.
Matt: We don’t have to go a three month bulking campaign and then a three month cutting campaign and that sort of stuff.
Elizma: No, I don’t think so, no. I don’t think so.
Steve: There is actually a paper on this and they found that in women over eight weeks there was no difference whether they fasted or fed to their muscle mass, and explanation with the preserve of lean muscle mass during short duration fasts less than 24 hours, was the fact that there’s anabolic hormones such as growth hormone to stimulate greater muscle protein since this was released in the morning. And increased utilization of ketone bodies for fuel thus suppressing skeletal muscle breakdown. So there’s papers on that. I mean, the best time to exercise is when you get to do it.
Matt: Yeah, yeah.
Steve: So if you quote “can’t do it in the morning,” and I believe most people can but let’s say you can’t or won’t, then do it in the afternoon.
Matt: As long as you can create a fasted state in the afternoon, so for example if you have your lunch, you don’t have anything else for the rest of the afternoon. You have your lunch at midday, and you knock off work at 4:00 or 5:00 and go do it, then you would be resembling a fasted state in regards to insulin and blood levels anyway. If not circadian-
Steve: And do it on the way home. Do it on the way home from work. Don’t get home because then you’ll be, “oh, I got this message or I got this thing,” do it on the way home. That’s what I always said to my patients, and do it. But I think we’ve summed up pretty well about how we can make this pretty good.
Matt: Yeah, you’re right. And what else? Do you have anything else [crosstalk 01:10:20].
Steve: Yeah I want to know what else is going on.
Elizma: Oh, well.
Matt: Is there a sigh?
Elizma: It’s always tons isn’t there? Well, you know I guess something else that I thought was quite interesting is in terms of fats, whether it’s the odd numbered or even numbered fats. They would be burned down slightly differently. So your odd numbered fatty acids which is more like your marine fats, so like algae and plant fats and stuff like that. So they actually don’t go through the traditional beta-oxidation pathway, they go in more at the bottom end of this cycle.
Matt: In destruction, yeah.
Elizma: And the benefit in that is that your even numbered fats which is more your saturated fats and your poofas and things like that. Because they go through the beta-oxidation, beta-oxidation can inhibit glycolysis. You inhibit glycolysis, you stop sugar burning so that can create higher blood sugar levels, and also it goes through the production of citrate. Citrate goes into cholesterol production. So those fats are, if everything falls right, those fats are more likely to create fatty liver and diabetes and things like that. Whereas the other ones they don’t follow that same path. I thought that was quite interesting.
Steve: A lot of interesting stuff.
Matt: Real interesting. And even fish oil and krill oils and that sort of stuff, so fish oil being triglyceride form and krill oil being phospholipid form-
Elizma: They will not add to fatty liver because they just don’t go through that mechanism which [crosstalk 01:11:49].
Steve: It’s very interesting, yeah. So it’s really cool, it’s a big topic. And I think the next one’s going to be bile.
Matt: I want to do bile.
Steve: I want to do bile too, I love the bile. It’s so much to it.
Matt: Well it’s a brilliant… when you do a podcast, when we talk about bile, we’re going to be talking about lipid profiles, we’re going to be talking about hormones, we’re going to be talking about digestion, we’re going to microbiomes-
Elizma: Yeah, we could talk about testing.
Matt: We talk about tasting it.
Steve: Is that what you said? That’s disgusting. I think you said testing it, didn’t you?
Elizma: I said testing, not tasting.
Matt: Oh, I was sitting there thinking tasting, [crosstalk 01:12:19].
Steve: Tastes like bile.
Elizma: No, no, testing. Like what kind of test you can do to-
Matt: You want to know what bile tastes like, eat some berberine.
Steve: Berberine, [crosstalk 01:12:26]. But I think we’ve run out of time hugely guys.
Matt: Yeah, let’s do simple stuff and things.
Steve: So we’ve got some FAQs here. And the first thing we’ve got here is a product testimonial. So while you guys get ready… and I love the title, Arthritis Relief After Three Days.
Matt: It’s truth.
Steve: And this is about Aurum oil which is one of our essential fatty acids products. Because fish oil’s not an essential fatty acid, these are actual essential fatty acids these ones. Okay. “My daughter purchased the Aurum oil as a gift.” Wow. “As I mentioned my profound dislike for the fishy reflux I always got from fish oil capsules. And I want to get more good fats in my diet.” Good on you. “Three days in and I started to notice changes in my arthritis jarred fingers. It’s been 88 months since I was able to move the knuckles on the tips of my fingers. Waking up with pain in my hands and just touching the knuckles was excruciating.” Sounds like rheumatoid arthritis.
Matt: Yeah, red.
Steve: “they were all red and swollen, and I thought if this keeps up I would end up with crippled claws for hands. The tendons in my palms had also previously begun to calcify with hard stone like lumps forming on them and over the past years unable to have full flex of my hands, and been decremented my life for so long. Three days and I couldn’t believe it, waking up not feeling any pains in my hands. The inflammation had disappeared from my knuckles, and they were literally back to normal size. I could actually wiggle the joints and the calcified lumps in my tendons in my palms had all but completely disappeared. I honestly just couldn’t believe it, the only change was adding the oils in. I’m so excited to see what the long term outcome is using this. It’s going to be an ongoing staple that’s for sure. Thanks ATP.” And that’s from Tracy.
Matt: That’s awesome. I tell you what, with that, anyone else who can relate to that case. Along with the Aurum oil if you wanted to create a larger stack, we have the Capzea which when you rub it on it just stops things from hurting. It just screws around with the calcium channels so you feel no pain. And it works instantly pretty much. And then we also have the Resilience which is a very powerful anti-inflammatory, the boswellia the turmerics and all that sort of stuff.
Steve: It’s good stuff.
Matt: Yeah, that’s so cool man. I love it.
Steve: Love it. Well this one’s from Jill.
Matt: Hey, Jill.
Steve: Hey, Jill. It says, “hi, Matt, Steve and Elizma,” just to change it.
Matt: It says Jeff.
Steve: It says Jeff, I’m sorry. We’ve got to get that right. Okay. “I’m writing to you today in hopes you’d be able to help me. I’ve listened to many of your podcasts. This is a little of what I’m experiencing. So I’ll try to give you as much information as I can. As a child I got many childhood illnesses that I usually got a little worse than others. My mother and father was always said that if one of my sisters got sick, I would get it 10 times worse. I have had hooping cough, mumps, chicken pox, shingles, and apparently a really bad case of measles that my parents had to take shifts to look after me during the day and night.
At 11 years old my family came to Sydney to live from Wales in the UK. In my early teens I suffered with anemia. I also had terrible constipation which caused cramping and bloating. I had anxiety, which I would hyperventilate many times. As an older teenager and young adult, 17 to 22, I struggled with life in Australia and I used to starve myself. I was anorexic, I went from 57 kilos to 40 kilos in a very short time. I’m five foot seven inches, I was way under my healthy weight and still thought I was fat.” Now that’s about 165 centimeters.
“At 19 I fell pregnant. I started to eat again and as I knew it just wasn’t me any more, but it wasn’t enough to just start eating. My body struggled with the pregnancy and sadly lost my baby at 19 weeks.” That is terrible. “I continue to eat but would make myself throw up afterwards, I blamed myself for losing my baby so I continued to punish myself. At 22 my GP organized me to visit a girl who was also anorexic. She was so thin and being fed through tubes, she could hardly lift her head off the pillow. I was really frightened that this is my destiny if I continue down a path of destruction. I started to eat smaller meals but more often. I gained weight but was still under weight.
I fell pregnant again at 22. This time I was stronger but my body still struggled and after many months in hospital, my baby son was born seven week early. He was very small and had a few problems, but he was alive. I knew he was my number one priority and I needed to be strong, healthy mom. From that day I looked after myself the best way I could. I still suffer with anxiety, anemia, and B-deficiency, to the point of having severe mouth ulcers. But otherwise I was okay.
At 27 I had another child. My pregnancy was a good one. I gave birth to a healthy baby girl who was nine days overdue now. I came home from hospital 24 hours later, within two days I was in bed in the most excruciating pain. I couldn’t eat, drink or could barely walk and had terrible chest pains. After several tests they said I had rheumatic fever,” which is an infection of the heart. “It took me months to get well. The chest pains stayed, I felt like someone was inside my chest pinching my heart and I continued to over breathe from anxiety. I had another child at 30. And that pregnancy was perfect. I gave birth to a healthy baby boy.
I was a busy mom of three. I ate all my meals, I exercised regularly, and I was doing okay. I still had anxiety, still suffered constipation, had mouth ulcers regularly and sometimes when I ran I would get a burning rash on my legs that would disappear before I could have a doctor look at it.
At 45 I went back to Wales for the first time. I went alone. The first stop was London. I got my hotel room and thought I would take a shower to freshen up after such a long trip. I struggled to take my jeans off as my legs really hurt. I got into the shower, and the water on my skin was unbearable. I looked down and my legs were covered in the same rash but worse than I ever had it. I was terrified.
I put on some soft track pants, and headed out. I went to the concierge to find out if there’s a doctor close by, he directed me to a chemist. I saw an older gentleman who run a chemist, he used to be a doctor. I showed him my rash. He gave me antihistamines and an injection. He said I was to come back in three days and he would give me a letter for my doctor in Australia. After three days my legs didn’t hurt as much as the rash looked like bruises.
Once back in Australia, I went straight to my doctor with the letter. He started a process of test after test, and after I was successful in being at the skin specialist in full flare up, a biopsy was taken, I was diagnosed with small vessel vasculitis and put on Imuran.” Which is an autoimmune disease of the blood vessels. “I felt like from that point on more and more things started to show up. I started having lots of trouble with my stomach, and after an ultrasound, I was told I had adenomyosis I used to hemorrhage often which caused anemia, and every day I was in pain.
Then I got these terrible rash on my face. It was so bad I was really embarrassed to go outside. After more tests I was diagnosed with connective tissue disease and put on high dose of steroids to help with the rash. I really struggled with the steroids. Took months for the rash to go. I gained 17 kilos and my face blew up like a big balloon. After six months I was told to slowly reduce steroid use over the following month until I was no longer taking them. I did this but ended up with adrenal fatigue and couldn’t move off the lounge for almost three weeks. I was booked in for a hysterectomy on August the 18th of 2018. I thought I would feel much better after the surgery and I could get my life back, no more pain.
This wasn’t the case. I still had pain. It hurt to do everyday things. I suffered when I ate, I was still anemic, I had a colonoscopy and a gastroscopy in 2018 and my bowel and stomach was biopsied. I was told I had Melanosis coli from long term laxative use and due to the constipation I have gastritis. Every day’s painful. I struggle with my stomach, it’s so painful and swollen. I’ve tried changing my diet. I’ve eliminated so many things from my diet, but can’t seem to find anything that helps. The more stressed I get about my stomach the way I feel, the worse it gets. My doctor said the steroids have probably caused to gastritis, I don’t know what to do. Some days I feel so nauseous, I throw up. I’ve had nine infusion tests, and the last blood test indicated my iron levels are good.
My rash comes on my face when I’m in flare up, but will never take steroids again. My vasculitis is okay at the moment but now I have psoriasis all over my thighs and buttox. I suffer with inflammation. My stomach stops me from enjoying my life, it’s always bloated and painful. Thank you for taking the time to read my letter. And I hope I may hear from you. Kindest regards. Jill”
Matt: Oh, man. That’s cool.
Elizma: Big journey.
Steve: Wow, what-
Matt: Yeah, but there’s a massive pattern forming all the way through this.
Steve: What’s that pattern?
Matt: So you know how people talk about cortisol being your stress hormone? The reason why is because when we get a stress trigger, our body releases cortisol. And cortisol’s job is to switch off our stress. So if your immune system fires up to kill an infection or to flush away an allergy, or as part of an acute infection. That’s a stress that cortisol is supposed to come out and calm the immune system down. If we’re pregnant, the baby’s only half yours, half foreign body. Cortisol’s supposed to come out and tell the immune system to calm down to not reject the fetus. If you are stressed, you get a worry, you get anxiety, you get panic, it’s cortisol that comes out to switch off your stress response, your negative feedback. Say, “you’ve had enough time to stress, you’ve survived.”
So the inability to switch off the immune system, the nervous system, to switch off the hurry worried money nervous system to allow to stomach to work. To allow the phase one pathways of the liver to calm down and allow the liver to do it’s job properly. All of those things are regulated by your ability to switch off your stress response. Which is actually done by cortisol. If things get far enough out of whack they’ll prescribe you a drug form of cortisol in the form of the steroids that she’s referring to. That have been able to switch everything off.
So you’ll see there’s a deficiency. She’s got no cortisol activity through her. You can’t regulate your circadian rhythms, you can’t regulate your appetite, your metabolism, your stress levels, your immune system. Cortisol’s our ultimate anti-inflammatory. I mean all these things, to me, sound as though the cortisol probably went through a phase of hyper-reactivity through to cortisol resistance, through to cortisol exhaustion. Should be hovering now between either an overflowing cup or an empty cup. There’s just no middle ground. She’s either, as soon as she fills up she’ll overflow with stuff. And then that’ll go to exhaustion. And the exhaustion comes from the over activity.
So the big point is as what we need to do in this instance, I believe and I would focus my resources into taking the burden off the adrenals, now also we’ve got to be aware after a hysterectomy, we need the adrenals to take some of that cortisol and not use it to make cortisol only. We also need it to make DHEA and then your other hormones. So at the moment it looks like everything’s going towards an inability to make cortisol.
So what I’m thinking, and this is the way I’d treat it. They have four pillars products, we have the MultiFoods to make sure they’re covering the basic nutrients in regards to water soluble and fat nutrients and that sort of stuff and the essential fatty acids. We have the GutRight that will go through there and make sure there’s no overgrowth of particular bugs and inflammation in the gut and leaky gut wall. Because with no oral tolerance, I don’t know if you just got a leaky gut wall, or if you have an immune system that won’t switch off when it’s triggered.
So I would use the four pillars because we get the Resilience, we get the GutRight that will go through and regulate that first line of defense and take all the burden off the adrenals. Then what I would do, we have that product called Cort RX, I would use Cort RX at night only. And the reason why I’d use it at night only is because we want to force that cortisol down a little bit. And it won’t go down unless we take the burden off the inflammation. So by using the four pillars, it will allow us to use the Cort RX to retrain that circadian rhythm to drop it down. And the four pillars will take the burden off that nervous system through the day by reducing some of that inflammation and stress.
The only other one thing that I would recommend you do is find a traditional Chinese medicine place or something and get some licorice root. And licorice root is really cool. Because when you drink licorice root as a tea, and I love it as a tea unless you hate licorice, but you get licorice root. Because what it does is it actually enhances the half life of your cortisol, so that way you’ll get more bang for your buck at the cortisol secretion. But plus locally. Drinking it it’s so nice and soothing and it actually has an anti-inflammatory effect on your mucosa. Unlike the drug steroids that will dry out that and cause a leaking gut wall. There is a lot in here.
You could go through and target everything. But I think if you didn’t address those adrenals and cortisol, or I think if you did one thing and got the adrenal’s shit together, to be able to switch off all of the stresses. It’s going to take a lot of burden off the system. So anything else? What do you think, Elizma? Anything else [crosstalk 01:25:59].
Elizma: Well, it’s interesting, I always go back to the beginning when things start. She’s talking about all these childhood illnesses that she had. Which is all viral. I’m looking here all the viral illnesses. So for me that says okay, well, back in those early days there may have been already issues with her methylation cycle. Because methylation is what switches viruses off. So she already had issues with-
Matt: She mentioned the B vitamins missing too.
Elizma: Yeah, well she got huge absorption… so we can argue, absorption issues first created deficiencies in nutrients needed for methylation, methylation cycle not onboard to switch of viruses, so now vulnerable to all these infections. It could also tie in with the constipation, because not making phospholipids for bile production, for constipation.
Matt: The anemia, there’s no B12 or folate [crosstalk 01:26:46] for that.
Elizma: Anemia, exactly there’s nothing there. Now she also, if she’s got the iron deficiency it would affect her ability to make dopamine, the dopamine dysregulation will then create the eating disorders that she experienced. So it’s a lot of stuff going on, but I agree, for me it’s probably stated in the gut in the first place. The lack of absorption of nutrients for whatever reason. And that could be, even a high cortisol of her mother during pregnancy or what have you.
Matt: Yeah, and your body’s not going to know the difference between a virus and other stressors. So that same adrenal mal-adaptation that I just described, could have been triggered by recurrent viral infections just as easily as any other stress.
Elizma: But the Cor RX, that contains Rhodiola?
Matt: Yeah it does have Rhodiola.
Elizma: So I thought that’s a great idea, because Rhodiola would also help with that dopamine regulation as well. And the interesting… just a side note is, she was diagnosed with connective tissue disease, but I guess I’m… and I don’t really want her to get hung up on diagnoses, because at the end of the day it’s about how we treat it. But it also sounds to me like she’s got a mast cell syndrome kind of pattern going on there as well. Which again is just symptomatic, but yeah. So I think-
Matt: So the mast cell for everyone, they degranulate and release histamine, make you really reactive to everything.
Steve: She reacted well to anti-histamines-
Elizma: Yeah she did.
Steve: When she was injected, so it gives her the good… I think a great product is the anti-inflammatory aspects of the Resilience and the Cort RX, because she’s got inflammation front and center. I think that’s a great prescription.
Elizma: I think so too.
Matt: So four pillars, plus Cort will send it out, and then you can find your own licorice root.
Steve: That’s it.
Matt: Because you can’t have mine. I don’t have any either.
Steve: Well, we’ve super run out of time now, but that’s all right.
Steve: Super run out of time. So I’m trying to keep the time, and I’m failed. You have to get his job… well thank you for coming along tonight [crosstalk 01:28:31].
Elizma: It was awesome as usual.
Matt: You’ve gone a little over the time now, I don’t care what you say. I got a piece of paper out of there that I want you to sign that basically says you-
Elizma: You own me.
Steve: Yeah, we own you now. That’s it. We should wrap up. And thank you so much for joining us today and we’ve had a great time. This has been an awesome podcast.
Matt: Thank you Steve.
Steve: Thank you.
Matt: I thank you Steve.
Elizma: I thank you all.
Matt: And thank you as well.
Steve: Thank you Elizma. And we’ll see you next time. Bye for now.
Matt: Thanks Vanessa for filming that and thank you for listening. Good night Australia.
Steve: Good night Australia.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. And remember, question everything. Well except what we say.
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