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Episode 210 – Question Everything Part 2

In this episode of the ATP Project, Jeff, Matt, and Steve continue on with more questions from our listeners about the industry, who ATP Science is, what our logo means, prop blends – right down to which Fruit trees we would pick if we had to pick only 3. You asked we answered, and there is more to come still. We hope you enjoy this one!

Podcast Index 

00:01:01 – Podcast start

00:03:07 – Pickup lines

00:05:21 – Speed reading and attention spans

00:08:57 – Modbiotic concept

00:11:54 – How would you set up the perfect fat loss plan?

00:20:32 – Can Block E3 cause elongated follicle phases and overall cycle length?

00:23:44 – What products do I need?

00:29:06 – I would like to know more about the team behind the scenes

00:35:35 – Why do you guys make prop blends?

00:43:16 – Can we do a podcast on how to increase low iron?

00:43:22 – What naturopaths do we recommend?

00:44:51 – Why do you think companies add artificial sweeteners?

00:47:39 – How does turmeric work?

00:49:03 – What products do you recommend for pregnancy?

00:49:18 – Why is there no evidence on collagen building muscle?

00:54:19 – What is your opinion on exercise physiologists and do you as naturopaths recommended them?

00:56:27 – Why do you guys not like Whey protein?

01:00:16 – If you were to plant only 3 fruit trees what would they be?

01:01:24 – Why do you think food intolerances are more common?

01:04:08 – Why don’t you have studies on your finished products?

01:10:14 – Is kombucha good for you?

01:10:35 – Any advice on SARMs?

01:13:58 – What is the story behind the ATP logo?

01:15:16 – Alpha Venus gives me jawline acne, why?

Transcript:

Steve:                   Welcome to the ATP Project, and today we’ve got an amazing podcast on Question Everything. We’re going to run through basically a whole heap of questions that have been sent in to the crew, and we’re going to be answering them in a wonderful, wonderful humorous way. So please sit back and listen and enjoy.

Jeff:                       As always this information is not designed to diagnose, treat, prevent, or cure any condition and is for information purposes only. Please discuss any information on this podcast with your healthcare professional before making any changes to your current lifestyle. Stay tuned the ATP Project is about to start.

Speaker 3:           Welcome to the ATP Project, delivering the irreverent truth about health, aging, performance and looking good. If you’re sick and tired of being sick and tired, ready to perform at your best or somewhere in between, then sit back, relax and open your mind as Jeff and Matt battle the status quo and discuss everything health related that can make you better.

Matt:                     Welcome to the ATP Project. You’re with your host Matt, Steve and Jeff. Good day guys.

Jeff:                       Good day, how are you guys? Good?

Steve:                   Hey, man.

Jeff:                       Good. Question Everything.

Matt:                     Everything.

Jeff:                       Part of a series that we’re doing at the moment. We’ve already done part one, which was really just talking about our view on Question Everything in terms of whatever information that you’re given, whether it be from the government, from a company, from an industry. Question it.

Steve:                   From us.

Jeff:                       Look at the details. Absolutely.

Matt:                     From us, yeah.

Jeff:                       Look into the details, and what we said on that last podcast is that people do not look at the details. They look, we’ve got beyond abstract science, which is where people take, I don’t know how many page report, university trial, whatever it may be, and they distill it down into a paragraph. People get upset, really, and true scientists get upset when people just look at that, because in a summary the people that are summarizing it may be leading you in a direction or have discounted things or got it wrong.

Steve:                   Or interpreted the results differently.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Jeff:                       What’s scarier. What’s even scarier than that is we’ve now got down to meme science.

Matt:                     Yes.

Jeff:                       We’ve got an anti-science movement going at the moment, which really it’s playing on the paradigm shift that’s happening with information at the moment through social media sites. Where people will look at a title of something and assume they know where it is.

Matt:                     Oh, yeah.

Jeff:                       They’ll accept someone’s premise because they’ll go, okay, this person obviously knows what they’re talking about. What we’ve got to do, and again, talking to a lot of our counterparts and a lot of the people that you’re working with specifically, Matt, are saying the same thing. There seems to be this real confusion in the marketplace that a lot of people are using to confuse people. That they’re using to mislead people and what have you. So what we’ve done is, we’ve invited people to ask us any of the questions that they had about ATP science. From anything, what’s my favorite pick-up line to what’s the science behind X, and Y, and Z. Well, I’ll give it to you, Steve. Once you hear this, you might want to date me.

Steve:                   Oh, yeah, okay.

Jeff:                       Stevo, have you had your tetanus shot?

Steve:                   No, I haven’t.

Matt:                     ‘Cause he’s got a little prick.

Jeff:                       No.

Matt:                     Was that it?

Jeff:                       No.

Matt:                     No? A rusty nail?

Steve:                   No.

Jeff:                       Stick it in your foot?

Matt:                     No, I’m going to nail you later on.

Steve:                   Oh, right. Okay. That’s a good one.

Jeff:                       It’s just like, no, well you better go get one, because I’m going to nail you later.

But the thing is, right? Is that yeah-

Matt:                     I’ve got one.

Steve:                   I’m sold.

Matt:                     But mine backfired because I used the same one for years.

Steve:                   You’ve been married for years!

Matt:                     No, this is well before that, Steve, obviously.

Steve:                   Of course, it is. Yes.

Matt:                     He’s only newly married.

Steve:                   Over a year now. [crosstalk 00:03:39].

Matt:                     What I used to say is, oh don’t be alarmed if a big fat man with a big white beard, and a big sack comes through your window at night and kidnaps you. That’s my fault because I asked Santa for you for Christmas.

Steve:                   Right.

Matt:                     Then what happened is I become a big fat man with a big white beard, and then they had this really scared look on their face as I was saying it, and I realized that I was pretty well saying to this person that I’m going to break in and steal you.

Steve:                   [crosstalk 00:04:09]. Leave that Santa in there. Santa is gender neutral.

Jeff:                       But Christmas is too-

Steve:                   It’s not associated with any religion, political view, or gender.

Jeff:                       Well, St. Nicholas.

Steve:                   St. Nicholas [crosstalk 00:04:27].

Matt:                     That’s what I’m saying. It’s just this fat guy with a beard. It could be me.

Jeff:                       I’ve got heaps of pick-up lines. But that’s the one I was using for so long. But anyway…

Steve:                   Can I tell you another funny thing that students usually-

Matt:                     Pick up line? No, we’re doing pick-up lines. Forget this. [inaudible 00:04:41] questioneering, what’s your pick-up line, Steve? I want to know Steve’s pick-up line.

Steve:                   Oh, I was in a band. I didn’t need a pick-up line. I was the singer in a band.

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:04:49] I’m amazed you’re still alive, to tell you the truth, seriously. But, guys, back on track. We’re getting people to question us. Anyway, there’s the pick-up line.

Steve:                   What I was saying is, what my students used to send to me was clips of someone on YouTube making a statement-

Matt:                     Oh, that’s where we started. Yeah.

Steve:                   … and they’d ask me to comment on it. It’s like, are you serious? Why don’t you ask the guy, write a comment, talk to that guy? Like why is he saying that. You’ve got to justify. I’m going, no I don’t. Go back and ask them the questions, to support their evidence.

Matt:                     But if you think about it-

Steve:                   It’s terrible.

Matt:                     Remember, Stevo, back in 2000 we worked for another company, and we went and did a Tony Buzan speed reading course.

Steve:                   Oh, yeah. That was-

Matt:                     Do you remember that?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     What we were taught to do for speed reading, you don’t want to read everything they’re teaching you.

Jeff:                       Really?

Matt:                     Don’t read everything, because you don’t know if it’s relevant to you or not. You don’t know what it’s trying to say to you. So what you do to speed read is, you have a look and you go in a motion like that-

Steve:                   You run your fingers also-

Matt:                     You actually scan down as an image, and you go down there, and you’re picking up on the headlines and any large words, or numbers, or pictures that might stand out. Now, by doing that through the pages, at the end of it we were then forced to do a little quiz, and we could guess what the paper was saying, based on the headings, the pictures. That’s was pretty much it, and that’s what speed reading is.

Steve:                   Pretty much.

Matt:                     After you do that, then you can go back if you’ve gone through all of these bulk of papers, you know which ones are relevant to you, then you can go read in depth in detail.

Then we’ve gone form that sort of training to now, remember with Facebook I used to watch everyone on Facebook, and they’d just be sitting there looking at their screen for a while, and then they’d do this, or whatever. Then they’re looking through, and they were reading things, they were looking at these pictures reading about how someone’s day was and that sort of stuff. Then I left Facebook, because there’s a lot of arguments, and hate and stuff like that. But then on Instagram, I watch people on Instagram and they’re doing this. So what you’re seeing is, and it’s just picture, picture, picture. Very few people read the comments. Most of the videos, most people’s phones are on silent, so they’re not listening to the words. They might be picking up on some of the headlines. They might be picking up on a theme. They might see multiple memes showing a theme, and then hearing little bits and pieces, and that’s enough for them to speed read, and guess, and come up with stuff.

Jeff:                       We’ve gone a long way.

Matt:                     The 10 minute memory’s gone to a 10 second memory that’s gone to a two-second attention span, you know?

Jeff:                       If you want to go back to Playboy, it’s like nobody was looking at the pictures, they were just buying it for the articles.

Matt:                     Exactly.

Jeff:                       Then we’ve gone the other way, now it’s just the pictures.

Matt:                     Remember we used to say that a picture tells a thousand words.

Jeff:                       Absolutely.

Matt:                     Well, now the only way to get a thousand words out before someone does that, is with a picture. You can’t write a thousand words and have anyone read it. They’ll do little pictures, now they’re the memes. That’s why memes are popular, we’ve got headlines on a picture.

Jeff:                       I want to throw a couple more things in there before we start to get into some of the questions.

Matt:                     Sure. Oh, yeah.

Jeff:                       So Matt, one of your sayings, which I think you borrowed it from someone, which is you can’t judge a fish’s ability-

Matt:                     I got that from a meme.

Jeff:                       Did you?

Matt:                     By it’s ability to climb a tree.

Jeff:                       You can’t judge its worth, if you like, by its ability to climb a tree. It’s the same thing with the tumeric argument, which is about bioavailability. I saw it fricking again in an ABC, I think it was, there was an article.

Steve:                   Yeah, you sent it to me.

Jeff:                       I sent it to you guys.

Steve:                   Yes.

Jeff:                       I went, look at these dumb asses. Sure, you can create science to suit your argument, but if you have no understanding of what’s really going on, or the mechanism of action-

Matt:                     Or your objective. Your target.

Jeff:                       Well, this is the problem, right? It’s because somebody can something that looks correct but can be completely wrong. How can you overcome that with literally, because I used to say it’s nine seconds you’ve got to get someone’s attention. Toni was actually saying the other, it’s two seconds. It’s literally two seconds. So, if you go and get someone’s attention-

Matt:                     That the true right? One and two, and one and two.

Jeff:                       That’s it. So anyway, but guys-

Steve:                   It’s funny, because probiotics aren’t absorbed either, by the way.

Jeff:                       Yeah. [crosstalk 00:08:37] Before you got the information, you theorized, Matt had a theory that was unproven, because we hadn’t seen the research, that worked in a certain way. Lo and behold-

Matt:                     What are we talking about? Probiotics or tumeric?

Jeff:                       Yeah, probiotics.

Steve:                   Tumeric.

Matt:                     Yeah, I know. That’s where we go the mod biotic concept from, and now it’s all been proven.

Steve:                   Wow.

Matt:                     It’s actually-

Steve:                   Paper of the week on that.

Matt:                     … our mod biotic concept of dead bacteria, with regulating the overgrowth, all of the conceptual data for the ability to regulate microbiome and modulate microbiome, work with dead bugs, kill off the overgrowth. All that came from the probiotic research. Everything that we hypothesized that came from the research proving the exact opposite, just interpreting the data slightly differently. Or looking for different ways, just looking in a different direction.

Another meme I saw once, was a guy, one guy standing at the one end of a W and the other standing at the end of an M. They’re looking at it arguing over whether it’s an M or a W.

Jeff:                       Yeah. Good point.

Matt:                     It depends what you’re looking at.

Jeff:                       Yeah, it’s all point of view. One of the other things that’s really interesting, though, based on talking about the mod biotic and all the rest of it, it’s funny because you look at certain industries. I mean, I remember when they used to, there’s a movie with Russell Crowe where he was bringing up the truth around cancer and cigarettes. Do you remember?

Steve:                   Oh, yeah.

Jeff:                       We’re only talking a generation ago. This was all being hushed up, right? There’s a whole heap of stuff around Monsanto at the moment, where they’ve just been lost in court a $2 billion lawsuit. They’ve got 13 000 lawsuits waiting to happen.

Steve:                   Did you see-

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:10:16] purchase them, their share price has halved. Do you know what Toni said to me the other day? We were just on the way home. She goes, do you know Monsanto, what else they make?

Matt:                     That’s what I was going to say.

Jeff:                       Do you know what else they make?

Matt:                     Yeah.

Jeff:                       Polystyrene.

Matt:                     No, but guess what, no, those things are still existing. So if we look at the analogy, they’re go, they couldn’t be putting this stuff out there if it was as bad as we all say. They were the ones that did DDT.

Jeff:                       I know DDT.

Matt:                     They did all … Most of the other stuff that has been banned. They did saccharine, and then saccharine got annihilated, so they did aspartame. The DDT got banned so they’ve done RoundUp, Glyphosate.

Jeff:                       Well, in terms of 180 degrees-

Steve:                   Its scar.

Jeff:                       … that’s kind of like, I just said to Toni, I said, that’s the devil. Like really that’s 180 degrees away from what we believe. Anyway, so let’s get into some FAQs and-

Matt:                     Oh yeah we better start.

Steve:                   Questions.

Jeff:                       Yeah [crosstalk 00:11:12]. Yeah, we’ll Question Everything.

Matt:                     If you get a word in.

Jeff:                       Well you know, and again this might actually go over a couple of episodes. We don’t have to do them back to back, because we’ve got a lot of questions we’ve tried to summarize them as much as we possibly can.

Matt:                     We do have a lot of questions.

Jeff:                       All right, let’s go for it. Let’s get into it. In one of the very first episodes, you spoke about fat loss methods, and described that some of your recommended routine would be to wake up, have some L-Cartine and Amp-V and hit some fasted cardio. Then maintain low levels of insulin throughout the day by having meals with protein and fats. Then load up on carbohydrate sources after your strength workout, which would put you in the late afternoon, evening. After the last few years of new research et cetera, how would you set up the perfect fat loss plan? Many thanks.

Now, I’m assuming as well too that the person is obviously wanting to target fat loss, but also still doing weight bearing exercises. So let’s just make that assumption. Let’s say if you could train any time, day or night, whether it be cardio or weights, what does that look like and what does the food intake look like?

Matt:                     Well, what we have not just learned over the other years, because we always knew this to be the case, but we’ve got a lot more data surrounding it now-

Steve:                   That’s true.

Matt:                     But basically, the fat loss game is basically an adaptation game. So what’re we looking at, fat loss itself is an adaptation to being in calorie deficit. But the problem is, is you will adapt to that adaptation. So with any fat loss journey you’ve got to create a starting point. What was listed there is a reasonable starting point. What you’ll find is over a reasonable period of time, or some time, you’re going to adapt. Now, with our experience with our athletes and the public, it might be six days, it might be six weeks, it might be six months. We really don’t know.

So the things that we would have learned since then to insist people do, is measure everything beforehand. Work with a coach to calculate calories in and calories out, based on what your current body composition, energy expenditure is, and that’s your starting point. Doing a cycle like this that will clean out the mitochondria, get that liver flowing. I still agree that starting a day with a fasted cardio to clean out the residual stuff, especially for people that are predisposed to fatty liver, elevated blood sugar. Those that are actually suffering from obesity are more predisposed, need that fasted cardio to clear out more so than the finely tuned athletes that won’t have residual fuel leftover because they’re burning it, and that sort of stuff.

So it’s very different when you’re looking at a coach or a bodybuilder for a fat loss campaign, for someone that’s good body fat that is trying to get to an extremely lean shape. Than if you’ve got someone that’s obese that’s trying to get to a healthy fat level, we’ve got to clear that pathway out. So not too much difference to be perfectly honest.

The main difference is we know more about the ratios between calories in and the maths that create that, but that doesn’t matter. We still need to start with something, and then monitor symptom picture, so the hormonal profiles. Subjective feedback will give us an indication if the hormones, if the stress chemicals are kicking in, if the thyroid’s slowing down, you’ll see those changes first and you can adjust.

Finally, with everything we’ve learned from the microbiome and the mod biotic’s, cycling through the seasons, going from a lower fat, cleaner carb phase into a higher fat, lower carb phase and cycling between them, is really important. You’ve got to follow those laws of nature, or work with your coach to know when it’s time to change.

Jeff:                       Well, you know Dave [inaudible 00:14:47]. We spoke to him and I was following the Ketogenic diet at that time. I don’t do that anymore. But I got good results with it, Toni didn’t. But even he was saying, there was a cyclical variation where every two weeks he would incorporate fruits and other things like that, he’d cut the fats out completely. So you could do micro puritization or you can do longer sort of things, but in terms of the ultimate program basics, and again, you correct me where I’m wrong, because it sounds like this person is just looking for a basic, yes, you want to continue to change things up. High intensity training’s obviously great, and again, listening to Ben Greenfield, who’s a real expert in this matter as well too, has shown that steady state’s very good but high intensity three times a week is also shown to be very good for fitness, but also had the added benefit of burning additional fat as well.

Matt:                     Cardio is for cardiovascular health. Like cardios not designed as a fat-loss thing, it’s just to get the blood flowing and things.

Jeff:                       So, you can have a listen to his podcast, too in regard to that. But in terms of waking up first thing in the morning, fasted cardio, whether it’s HIIT or whether it’s steady state. Don’t overdue the HIIT, I mean a lot of people overdo HIIT, and as a result they put too much stress on their body, and their body actually goes into conservation mode, and actually starts shutting things down. You can burn … So, fasting cardio first thing in the morning, definitely recommend Amp, L-Carnitine is situational, Matt because you used to say as well, too, a lot of the time when you’re first starting, you’ve got a lot of L-Carnitine reserves so you don’t need to supplement with it. It’s only once you effectively start to hit some of those plateaus you can add it back in. Because that may be one of the reasons why you’re stopping burning fat is because you’ve actually run through your L-Carnitine reserves, correct?

Matt:                     Yeah, you can hit a plateau, so the enzyme that burns fat, carnitine palmitoyltransferase-

Steve:                   It’s carnitine-

Matt:                     … if you use a lot of it for fat burning, you can run out of the substrate for it.

Steve:                   It’s interesting because there’s data on this, too. We’ve got to remember that people have tested this, when’s the best time to burn fat? A bit of controversy about this, but fasted seems to be the best time to get greater fat oxidation, still burning the same calories-

Matt:                     But not during the exercise or are we talking after?

Jeff:                       After, then?

Steve:                   We’ve concluded that aerobic exercise performed the fastest, induces higher fat oxidation than exercise performed in a fed state. So basically if you burn the same calories but while you’re exercising, you oxidize more fat.

Matt:                     From your body than-

Steve:                   From your body-

Matt:                     … the food that you just ate.

Steve:                   Yeah, which makes sense, but a lot of people were controversial about this. They said no, you exercise any time. That’s true.

Jeff:                       Absolutely.

Steve:                   But if you want the best, and that’s what this person’s asking, that’s specifically what they’re asking about fat loss, this is a meta-analysis done, review British Journal of Nutrition, very recent paper, so it’s pretty definitive.

Jeff:                       So then understanding, and understanding what your macro, your calories in should be looking like based on your muscle mass, based on your overall body weight. Again, that’s where if you’re working with a coach that can really help, and also even cycling up and down. I mean, sometimes you might overfeed or have non-diet type meals where you actually incorporate a few extra calories, take the handbrake off the metabolism. You’ve got to keep that where you don’t restrict calories to low. We know that VLCD diets are dangerous. Short-term, they work well. Long term, they kill your muscle tissue, which overall kills your metabolism.

If you’ve got that right, then, so you’re eating well, you’re eating regular your meals as according to how many calories you should be consuming. Again, we recommend to work with a coach on that. Then what should be happening is you should be then training say in the afternoons, in the evenings, and that’s where you would put a good amount of protein and carbohydrates in post-training. Which is going to give you more muscle mass, which is going to increase your metabolic rate. Because if you’ve got more muscle mass, you’re going to be burning more calories, right?

Matt:                     When your cortisol is lower is when you’re going to build more muscle. You’ll undo that resistance then when your cortisol is lower. Paradoxically when your cortisol is lower, you get more inflammatory triggers, and it’s the inflammatory triggers that stimulate the protein synthesis.

Steve:                   So you’ve got to remember that it’s not just about energy burned, it’s about what energy. Fat oxidation is higher when you’re fasting, it makes sense, but the studies now show it and they’ve measured it. So it’s not like a mystery anymore. It’s good, I mean the science never settles. But whenever someone says the science is settled, you know you’re in trouble.

Matt:                     No, yeah.

Steve:                   But that’s what the best understanding is on meta-analysis on British Journal of Nutrition. So it’s pretty clear.

Jeff:                       Do you think we’ve answered the question reasonably well?

Matt:                     Yeah, reasonably.

Jeff:                       So, fasted cardio in the morning, probably exercise in the afternoon [crosstalk 00:19:09], carbohydrates post-workout with your evening meal. Again, we’ve sort of-

Matt:                     Stay relative carbohydrate-deficit through the day. But even that is a system, and you would work with your coach, and if you’re not responding or if you’re adapting, or subjectively you can see signs of stress and adaptation, then you need to change.

Steve:                   It’s all about the results.

Matt:                     The calories in and calories out, it’s all to do with calories in and calories out. The question is measuring the maths. Your calories out that they determine based on your basal metabolic rate, based on your muscle mass, has multiple variables, you know? The thyroid, your thermic effects of food, your exercise levels. Then your non-exercise just burning, and then how that’s influenced by your calories. Then we get to that point where we’ve got our math so fine that if you go too far, then your calories in all of a sudden determine your calories out as you go into starvation mode. Then all of a sudden it’s like, okay so we’ve gone calories down, calories in are down, and calories out we’ve maximized. Then, all of the sudden, everything shits itself, so oh quick we’ve got to fix that. So it’s just all about adaption, and everyone is an individual, but everyone, you’ve just got to start somewhere. That’s a reasonable place to start. The challenge is working with a coach that knows when to change.

Steve:                   Yeah, exactly.

Matt:                     Next one.

Steve:                   That’s one question of 312.

Jeff:                       Okay, can Block E3 cause elongated follicle phases and overall cycling?

Matt:                     Oh, yes. That’s a really, really, cool question. See how many really’s I added into there? That’s how cool it is.

Jeff:                       Yes, three.

Matt:                     Yeah, I think it’s really, really, really … Yeah, anyway, chrysin. I don’t know if I’ve ever explained this to the people out there.

Jeff:                       I think we’ve talked about it.

Matt:                     Why is sub cut and Block E3 not combined? Why wouldn’t I have put chrysin from Block E3 in the sub cut was exactly this reason. So chrysin, the way it works is it’s an aromatase inhibitor. Now, aromatase converts testosterone to estrogen. Now, in the fat cells it converts testosterone to estrogen, and that holds fat and fluid, and that estrogen is used as an autocrine or peracrine hormone. Meaning it works within that cell or the neighboring cells. In fat tissue blocking aromatase will build up testosterone and block estrogen, okay?

In your ovaries, if you’re rubbing the Block E3 right onto your lower abdomen, like right in amongst your ovaries into that inguinal region and that sort of stuff, getting into there regularly. Then the chrysin can influence with the ovaries and inhibit the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. That is the follicular phase. So if that’s not happening in the follicular phases, then yes, in theory it can elongate it. But also, we used to use, chrysin was always used into those veins around the groin to treat endometriosis and that sort of stuff associated with estrogen excess.

So the reason why we didn’t add sub cut and chrysin into the same product, is because we don’t want to be getting, we’re telling people to rub sub cut all over their abdomen and everywhere like that, but we educate people to use the Block E3 on specific fat pouches. Isolate it tight onto that fat pouch, and don’t just cover your whole body with it. The way we used to use chrysin was originally developed as a cream in the bioidentical hormone market, where we used to use, for the blokes that would get bioidentical testosterone, if they ever had a fatty breast tissue chest, had a lot of fat around their gut and the chest, they had a lot of aromatase-density fat tissue, they could convert that testosterone to estrogen. So we used to get them to rub it into their wrists to get a systemic effect, and onto their chests to actually stop the man-boobs from the testosterone. But sub cut works by stimulating cyclic AMP.

If someone has got developed glandular tissue into the forms of gynecomastia, and I used sub cut on their chest, I could stimulate aromatase in the breast tissue in the men. So the reason why sub cut and Block E3 are split is because they work better that way. Also, I don’t want to put sub cut on a man-boob, and I don’t want to put Block E3 on a cystic ovary. So if I combine them and tell them to rub it everywhere, then you’ve got problems, and it won’t work anywhere near as well.

Jeff:                       Cool.

Steve:                   That’s a good one.

Matt:                     Next question.

Steve:                   Good answer.

Matt:                     Thank you.

Jeff:                       We’ve got a lot to get through.

I love listening to your podcast and learning how the body functions.

Matt:                     Thanks, Jeff.

Jeff:                       Often I find myself thinking, that sounds like me. But would nearly have me taking very product you have, of which I already take quite a lot. How do I know what my priority products are? How do I decipher exactly which ones I need and when?

Steve:                   That’s a good question.

Jeff:                       Let me throw in a quick disclaimer here, as well too.

Matt:                     Oh, yeah. Do that.

Jeff:                       Number one is, number one thing that we always educate, food is medicine. Eat fresh. Eat local. High quality food covers a multitude of sin. Again, we were talking about Monsanto before. Trying to remove as much of those things out of your diet as possible. Having times of holiday relaxation. You know, we are so overwhelmed with anxiety and stressors, the ability to slow down and have those days where you just lay in bed and watch TV, and take some time off. Outside of that, and the reason why I’m saying that is, I don’t want people to think, take supplements because it’s going to fix your life. We’ve always said that. In terms of why we created ATP Science is because we recognized there were some habits that most people had, including ourselves as well too. It’s almost impossible to eat all organic, all free range, all the time. It’s expensive, and if you’re going out, going out for food or what have you, it’s not always available.

But, Matt-

Matt:                     I don’t like curries either, which is why I put all my spices in capsules.

Jeff:                       There you go.

Matt:                     Because I just don’t eat them daily.

Jeff:                       I’m going to say one thing, and then I’ll throw it over to you. In terms of all of our products-

Matt:                     You’re going to tell them about the naturopath service?

Jeff:                       No. The Four Pillars was the thing that we created really as something that we said that everybody could take, because the nutrients that were used to be in our food, are no longer there. When we sat down Matt, I said, what is it … You had a piece of paper out, and you basically divided everything up, and you said, Jeff, here’s the things that people are missing that would help so many people in terms of disease, health, performance, if they just had these things into their diet, which is where the hour pillars came from.

I’ll throw it over to you. What do you reckon?

Matt:                     Well, basically we need to build a stable foundation first, here’s a bit of a hierarchy. So basically there are things called essential nutrients, which we do need because we can’t make them, that’s why they’re called essential. If you don’t eat them, you’ll die from not having them. We need to make sure they’re there, to make sure you’re capable of wellness. That’s when I’m talking about building a stable foundation of something to work from, the right bricks and mortar to build something awesome. Just need to make sure they’re there. Excessive amounts doesn’t do anything excessive. Just make sure you’re not deficient.

Then we realized that there is a hierarchy, that what you just said, if you’re under stress in any form then your priorities change to survival. Your body does not know the difference. Your body is our unconscious mind. It’s basically collecting data and sending stress signals to the brain. It doesn’t know the story behind the data, it lets your brain work that out.

If we allow our body to tell us when we’re stressed all the time, we get stuck in distress mode. The rest of the time is it could be your immune system, could be toxic exposure, could be any of that sort of stuff. The Four Pillars basically help to build a stable state by managing your gut, managing your oxidative stress, managing your mucosal immunity, taking away majority of the inflammation.

The Four Pillars is the best place to start because it actually removes 80% of those symptoms. If you’re mucosal immunity, if your stress nervous system is out of whack, it’ll tell you, gonadal system you’re not important. We’re not shagging for fun and we’re definitely not shagging for reproduction when we’re this stressed. Tells your thyroid, conserve your energy, or burn some energy depending if I’m in acute chronic stress mode. It’ll tell all parts of the body, it tells your liver, don’t worry about cleaning up the mess. We’re going to deal with poisons and venom as part of the stress response.

I suggest most people start along that Four Pillars. You’ll find your symptom picture across the liver, and the reproductive systems, and everything will remove so much burden, just by taking the stress triggers off your body, and stopping that handbrake onto the other systems. So I always tell people that it’s Four Pillars, and then have a look what’s leftover, and then specifically treat, temporarily using things like Cort RX, T432, Venus Prime, Mars, the creams or whatever, to force the change on those final symptoms. Then when it’s time to have a break, or if you’re not sure if I’ve fixed the problem, if you’ve used Venus to get your menstrual cycle regular, Steve, you don’t have to keep taking Venus for the rest of your life to keep it. Take a break. Stay on the Four Pillars. You’ll probably find it should stay good.

So the whole point of the Four Pillars is a good place to start, but also once you’ve used the real powerful movers and shakers, you go back onto the Four Pillars for maintenance. If you really struggle, contact us. We can help you navigate through the symptom picture, and identify what your health priorities may be. Because that’s what we’re asking for-

Jeff:                       That’s something that we’ve taken the initiative of. We’ve got the new service coming, Matt, where you’ve handpicked and trained some naturopaths to be able to actually, people call in and look at their symptom picture questionnaire. We’re working with testing clinics, Elizma as well too, Elizma is coming now and is working with us as a hormone expert to actually help understand how to test things so that you can get real feedback-

Matt:                     Hormone expert, everything expert. That chick’s a freak.

Jeff:                       What’s interesting is I keep seeing people saying, you’re not allowed to test for this, and I went to my doctor, and you’re not allowed. You’re not allowed to take control of your own health anymore.

Matt:                     That’s wrong. That’s not true.

Jeff:                       That’s right, you are. You are allowed-

Matt:                     Just not allowed to tell anyone.

Jeff:                       Just go and find someone else that can help. But anyway, it all starts with quality food, and removing as much stressors out of your life as practical. I mean, you’re going to have to deal with them, but that time of refreshing. Sorry, guys, I’m going to try and rush through this [crosstalk 00:29:06].

I’d like to hear more about the awesome team behind the scenes, that’s probably coming from a tribey. Well-

Matt:                     You just heard about our naturopath star.

Jeff:                       ATP Science is now-

Matt:                     That’s bullshit, that’s come from Brooko, she would have snuck that one in. Brooko sucks.

Jeff:                       So we’ve got 42 employees. Two are based in the United States. The rest of them are based here in Australia. We’ve got-

Jeff:                       What’d you say the other day? 18 degrees?

Jeff:                       We have 18 degrees with 12 staff. John’s got five-

Matt:                     It’s because he couldn’t get a job.

Jeff:                       … he’s an associate professor.

Matt:                     So John’s, Cleopatra, the one we refer to as Queen of Denial.

Jeff:                       He’s just had an award named after him now-

Matt:                     Really?

Jeff:                       … at University of Queensland, I think it was.

Matt:                     Yeah, wow.

Jeff:                       Now recipients of the award who for outstanding research into the molecular bioscience. [crosstalk 00:29:55] We’ve got a pretty awesome team. I mean outside of you two guys who are obviously naturopaths, worked for other research companies as well too.

Matt:                     Mainly eye candy. Models.

Steve:                   Of course-

Jeff:                       We’ve got a lot of health science. Toni, as I said my wife, who’s Head of Marketing, with Elsa and we’ve only just hired one other person. We’ve got three people in the entire company in marketing. It was two.

Steve:                   We’ve got an obsessive-

Jeff:                       She’s also the financial controller, as well as handling all the administration stuff as well.

Steve:                   It’s incredible.

Jeff:                       She is six months short of her degree in biotechnology, majoring in genetic engineering.

Steve:                   That’s awesome.

Jeff:                       Elsa has a marketing degree as well, too. Oh my gosh, I mean quality health science people. Sonia. It’s funny to see the difference-

Matt:                     Oh yeah, quality assurance person, Shirley Handy.

Jeff:                       Yeah, having a conversation with Sonia, she is absolutely very detailed. What would take me about three seconds, takes her probably about 30 minutes.

Steve:                   Detail, yeah.

Jeff:                       But that’s the kind of personalities that we need.

Linda, who’s joined the team, she heads up all of our procurement, she’s got two degrees. One in health science. One in, she’s got an MBA I think?

Matt:                     She’s formerly worked in all the TGI manufacture, procurement, raw material supplies. She’s the toughest, and the best when it comes to quality assurance for the raw materials.

Steve:                   Raw material.

Matt:                     Her testing it.

Jeff:                       When I met her, I was saying, we want to get the best quality ingredients at the lowest possible prices. It’s your job to ensure both. So then she obviously works a lot with Southern Cross Plant Sciences to do species identification.

Steve:                   It’s good hey.

Matt:                     Oh but outside our extended network of Griffith University Drug Discovery, as you mentioned or alluded to, University of Queensland. We do a lot of work in the States, a couple of mates there. We’ve got Richard Kryder, a good friend there for the guy that published, R.B Kryder just put that into PubMed, you’ll see everything I published. We’ve got the intellectual academic associations, and the extended network is really, really cool.

Jeff:                       Then we’ve obviously got the manufacturing team as well, too at the other end who are just hands on. Obviously we’ve got manufacturer of all of our powders, our liquids, our capsules here. They’re also doing the-

Matt:                     Tina Dale. Like Dales a food tech, she was originally from the guys that made all of our Body Balance. She was originally, she’s a probably, I don’t know-

Jeff:                       Collagen expert.

Matt:                     Yeah, yeah. But one of the best in the world when it comes to actually working out how to use collagen for practical applications. Because most other people are out there just having a crack and a guess of ideas, and she’s actually been in there making it and doing it.

Jeff:                       Well, some of the stuff that we’re working on now has been two years, and I can’t even tell you what it is, but if people knew they’d be like, oh my gosh, that’s so cool. We’re moving into a fast moving consumable market.

Steve:                   We’ve got bars coming out?

Jeff:                       Well, we’ve got new bars. We’ve got four different types of bars coming out over the next two years. We’ve got so much R&D, so much stuff that we’ve done that’s never seen the light of day. Either because we’ve got a couple of years into the project, literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, like what we did with-

Matt:                     Plant protein.

Jeff:                       The plant protein.

Matt:                     We invented the most amazing, eco-friendly green bloody, everything, it was like from waste, it fixed up all these dodgy industries, it cleaned up all the waste, made better products for everyone. It was excellent.

Jeff:                       The government got involved.

Matt:                     The government got involved and wanted to give it to someone that they believed a multinational would pay more tax in Australia, we’ll give it to them.

Jeff:                       Nothing’s happened with it.

Steve:                   No.

Matt:                     No.

Jeff:                       We invented the project.

Matt:                     We invented, yeah I know. We own the IP and we just got stuck, and held up.

Jeff:                       Yeah and $50 000 was the first check that we had to cash, when we didn’t have much more in the bank than that.

Matt:                     We had 70.

Jeff:                       We… not bit the farm, but we bloody well came close to it.

Matt:                     Someone else’s farm, yeah.

Jeff:                       But, look, we’ve got an amazing team of people behind the scenes that many people don’t know about. As I said, from hands on manufacturing, right through to yourselves and John at the very high end of science. John isn’t even qualified to work on a lot of the stuff that you guys do, and that’s no disrespect to John, it’s just that he’s not in product development. He works more in operations. He headed up the Australian Institute for Commercialization for over a decade. So he’s helped start-ups. He was also one of the founding, the original guys in a biotechnology company, which listed onto the stock market.

Matt:                     He invented the test for Epstein Barr virus, or Dengue Fever? Or Ross River? One of those mosquito things.

Jeff:                       No, something. That was Myron Winston, did the Epstein Barr virus. But he did work with a lot of testing for, I forget what it was.

Matt:                     Some shit.

Steve:                   Some shit.

Jeff:                       But anyway, no, we do have an amazing team, and they’re growing rapidly as well, too.

Matt:                     Then the funny thing is too we get a lot of messages from people saying, hey guys, we’d love to do this, and hey, Jeff and Toni, you’ve done amazing things. Jeff and Matt usually [crosstalk 00:34:45]

It’s very important to realize that there is a very introverted genius freak that pretty much makes a lot of the decisions that we all pitch our ideas to, that will decide what it’s going to look like, how it’s going to work, and all that sort of stuff, and that’s actually Toni. We don’t give her too much credit because she says, oh, I’m shy, and that sort of stuff. Well, I want to take the credit anyway so that kind of works cool. [crosstalk 00:35:09]

Jeff:                       We’ve got an amazing team. We probably do need to expert a little bit more.

Matt:                     Ah, screw them. We take credit ourselves. It’s pretty much just us.

Jeff:                       Yeah. It’s just me and Matt.

Matt:                     Just us and Vanessa.

Jeff:                       Stevo.

Steve:                   Occasionally, yeah.

Matt:                     Vanessa is a bloke. So in regard to behind the scenes, Vanessa is the movie dude-

Steve:                   Yeah, he is.

Matt:                     -that turned up. He’s behind the camera there. He at one stage thought his name was Matt, but that’s my name. So he’s now Vanessa.

Steve:                   Next question.

Jeff:                       There’s some other questions from the short list, which ar rally punchy, that I really want to get to as well, too. Here’s from the short list. So these, ones are just rapid fire, okay.

Matt:                     Let’s go rapid fire. All right.

Jeff:                       Okay, just quickly, and then we’ll come back to some of these long questions.

Matt:                     This is supposed to be rapid fire. Come on, rapid fire.

Jeff:                       Can we do an iron podcast on how to increase low iron?

Matt:                     Yes.

Steve:                   Sure. We can, easy.

Jeff:                       That’s a good one. Okay. What do naturopaths do we recommend that work with our products?

Matt:                     No.

Jeff:                       Well, we can’t at the moment. Obviously, as we start working more with the practitioner market, we hopefully can find a way-

Matt:                     It’s bloody hard, though man.

Jeff:                       It is.

Matt:                     I was a naturopath for 20 something years, I never went to a bloody naturopath. I had mates that were naturopaths, and I had people that I spoke to or saw, or networked with. You refer them to it, and everything goes to a shit sandwich.

Jeff:                       People have got different ways of doing things, as Matt said. It’s like with anything, with doctors, or naturopaths or whatever practitioners-

Matt:                     We’ve done Liz Marr, Gary Griffin, there’s a few that we’ve recommended. Friends of ours.

Jeff:                       Obviously we’ve got our naturopath that we’ve got, which is trained by you. But the thing is, right is that there’s some really good ones out there, and there are some not-so-good one’s out there. There are some really good ones at treating X, Y, Z disease, that might be fantastic at PCOS but terrible at andropause. Again, this is trial and error so-

Steve:                   The ones I trained when I was principal are excellent at everything, if you were wondering.

Matt:                     But the funny thing is, is basically keep, take control of your own health. Use your coaches, use these people to guide, but you basically take control of your own health. You gather your own info. Keep all your own results. Keep your own file. That way you actually drive the process and you’re capable of knowing if they’re shit or not.

Jeff:                       The cool thing is there are some great naturopaths out there, there are. You have to look for them. It’s like doctors. It’s like anything.

Steve:                   Yes. That’s true.

Jeff:                       They’re harder to find, but when you find them, you’ll normally find they’re booked out, and they’re hard to get in to see. But, yeah, so sorry we don’t have a network at this point in time. Why do you think companies add sucrase, maltitol and maltodextrin to everything?

Steve:                   Wow. Well, sucrase tastes great. That’s the-

Matt:                     Because, that’s the sucrose. It’s one of the only sweeteners that has that sucrose flavor. It comes from sugar powder.

Steve:                   Yeah, well, it’s made from sucrose. You just add three cloying molecules so it sticks to your sweet receptors, 600 sweeter than sugar. So you put a tiny amount in a drink and it tastes great. THat’s why they do it. I don’t agree with that, because it changes the microbiome, it has side effects galore. But that’s why they do it.

Jeff:                       Maltitol is a personal favorite hate for me. I hate maltitol. You take that stuff completely rips through you. You have a lot of sugar free lollies, and mate, that is just nasty. What it is doing to your microbiome as well, too. Now we did do a podcast on the artificial sweeteners, or the non-nutritive sweeteners, so if you’re of interest go back and have a look at that. What we use? Again, we use mainly stevia, and we also use erythritol. Now, erythritol is a sugar alcohol. Most sugar alcohols I believe are terrible, horrible, not good for your gut. Erythritol, which is made from grape sugar I believe-

Steve:                   Yeah, monk fruit.

Jeff:                       … has actually been found to be beneficial for gut health.

Steve:                   It is good.

Jeff:                       In terms of non-nutritive sweeteners, again, go and listen to our podcast. I think that was a really good resource to understand and educate yourself about the different non-nutritive sweeteners. The ones that I absolutely recommend to stay away from is acesulphame K. That is an absolutely horrible, terrible one. Stevo, I think you even you were saying that the research that was coming out on sucrase was pretty scary.

Steve:                   It’s scary, because a lot of people take artificial sweeteners to lose body weight. Let’s assume that, and for taste, but so that they can palette something without sugar. The problem with sucrase is that it changes the microbiome, increases firmicutes so you extract more calories out of your food that you eat. So you actually end up putting on weight. They’ve done this in humans and rat studies now, so it’s quite problematic.

Jeff:                       This is where the devil’s in the details, because people might look at a result saying, sucrase, okay in terms of calories, it has a very low calorific value and it doesn’t impact on the insulin secretion.

Steve:                   Not much. A little bit.

Jeff:                       Here’s the thing, that’s the problem, it’s not working through that mechanism. It comes down to another question we’re going to be asked later on about tumeric. Which, again we keep having this stupid question about tumeric come up, and why idiots, and I’m saying idiots combine it with black pepper.

Matt:                     It’s not that…

Jeff:                       It is.

Matt:                     It’s not idiots that combine with black pepper.

Jeff:                       Who is it?

Matt:                     It’s the people that want tumeric throughout their body to have an anti-cancer effect who then combine with black pepper-

Jeff:                       They’re not marketing it that way.

Matt:                     … because it inhibits Mtor.

Jeff:                       Yes, but they’re not marketing it that way, Matt. They’re saying, our tumeric is better for all the health benefits because it’s got black pepper.

Matt:                     Yeah no, that’s wrong.

Jeff:                       Exactly. So, yes, there is a reason to do it, but it’s not the reason that they’re marketing it under.

Matt:                     Should I just mention quickly, I can do a quick, rapid fire tumeric. Tumeric works via mucose, well fucking you already mentioned it. Tumeric works via the mucosal immunity, anti-inflammatory and anti-oxidize mechanisms mainly. It also stimulates certain process of detoxification that work on xenoestrogens and pollutants, and all of that occurs via directly interacting with your gut. Being a victim of first-pass metabolism, stimulating the detoxification process before being put back into the bowel, where it gets to the microbiome, who enhances its bioavailability and allows it to systemically get through the body. By putting black pepper with it, you create a leaky gut wall, and you inhibit glucuronidation on the liver, thereby getting tumeric past the liver, into the bloodstream to saturate your body, hopefully either inhibit Mtor to stop cancer growth, inhibit blood vessel formation for cancer growth, or turn you yellow and become one of the Simpsons.

Steve:                   Yay.

Matt:                     Basically the big thing is your intended purpose. If you’ve got a weird ass cancerous tumor in some part of your body, and you want to saturate that with tumeric, then having some tumeric with black pepper will get more of that tumeric to there. If I want to fix your body and make you healthier, I want most of that tumeric actioning happening in the gut, the mucosal immunity, and the liver. So even if I did have a tumor there, I would combine it. I would maybe put one with a high bioavailability, but I would definitely realize that we still need tumeric to work as tumeric, which is by not screwing with it.

Jeff:                       There’s some more questions on tumeric, but later on. All right. We’ll keep going.

What sup’s and vitamins do you recommend for pregnancy?

Matt:                     Don’t know. A pregnancy one, food. You go for food. None of our stuff’s been studied in pregnancy.

Jeff:                       That is the safe-

Matt:                     Man, you missed a really cool question.

Jeff:                       I know. I’m coming back to this one. This one’s a really big one, it’s been up a couple of times-

Matt:                     Is it the three truths?

Jeff:                       Why is there no evidence on collagen building muscle, like you guys talk about?

Matt:                     Rubbish.

Steve:                   Wow.

Matt:                     There’re stupid amounts. What we talk about is one paper that was supposed to be published that… Now this is the thing, it wasn’t versus whey. So what happens is, is there’s bulk collagen papers, I’ve got all of these-

Steve:                   One, two, three, four-

Matt:                     … all of these are published collagen papers.

Steve:                   … five. I’ve got five in front of me.

Matt:                     We’ve got bulk about of data-

Jeff:                       This thing Steve.

Steve:                   Sure.

Matt:                     … with old blokes, [inaudible 00:42:27] or whatever so we’ve got people, old blokes that weren’t training much using collagen and showed that it had significant improvements to everything. Then we did another one with young women that didn’t train, and then they put that through. We’ve now done one with, just last week one was published on resistance trained men that had hit a plateau. Because one of the objections with the previously studied ones was that ah, that was old men, and they hadn’t trained. So of course when they trained they’re going to get results. But we’re talking about versus placebo. Interestingly in these papers that they do, placebos not placebo, placebo is protein, a certain amount of allocation of protein from the diets. So, if it fits your macros.

Then what they’ve done is they’ve published, we needed to a positive control, so like I said, if you get people that haven’t trained, and you do a study on them, they get exaggerated results. You know like when you first start back at the gym and everything puffs up, you go, man look at these, I’ve been to gym this week, I’m buffed.

Jeff:                       It’s great.

Matt:                     So you get those big fast changes, once you hit a plateau you’re not getting such statistically significant changes. So what they did is they used a control, which was protein, so all the groups had the same amount of protein. 15 grams of one group, they allocated to collagen. Now, as a positive control they used whey, so wherever they had a paper that they compared placebo, which was diet to collagen and used whey, they could not get that paper published because of the whey.

So what they’ve done is they’ve removed all the data versus whey, and published all these articles except for the one magic one I’m still waiting on, which will be published next year. So there are stupid amounts of data on collagen, the ability to build muscle, support nitrogen retention. So, much data on how collagen does fascia, bone, everything and the [inaudible 00:44:18], everything associated with muscle. There’s a couple of papers where they’ve compared it to placebo and whey, and those papers have been either altered where they’ve removed the whey data to get them published, collagen versus food was fine.

Now, don’t forget that food included dairies and meats, and all that sort of stuff. Anyway-

Steve:                   More protein.

Matt:                     … macros, yeah, on average Stevo I went and said, double check. I said lets rip this to bits. Double that they matched the proteins, so both groups, I predicted but they had 15 grams of extra protein-

Steve:                   Extra. 15 grams yeah.

Matt:                     So they didn’t, no, they based … The funny thing is that Stevo went through, and it was actually skewed a little bit to the group that had more protein.

Steve:                   Yeah, it did. Well basically the paper you’re talking about is published in Nutrients, May 2019, so just this month really. Basically the placebo group got more protein by 10 grams per day of more actual protein, and they still didn’t gain as much muscle as the less-

Matt:                     Collagen group.

Steve:                   … protein with the collagen.

Jeff:                       Steve there’s a lot of people that are going to want to cite that report. So we need to put that up on our website.

Matt:                     We just put it up.

Steve:                   We’ll get a close up of that if you want the cover.

Matt:                     This is cool-

Jeff:                       These guys are terrible at putting links in, so you-

Steve:                   [crosstalk 00:45:32].

Matt:                     They don’t want you to find it.

Jeff:                       You might have to put half the title in.

Matt:                     That’s what you do.

Steve:                   It’s actually free, you can get this one, just download it from PubMed.

Jeff:                       Nice.

Steve:                   It’s actually freely available.

Matt:                     This ones in their recreationally active men.

Steve:                   Active men.

Matt:                     Right, that’s the important bit, because what they did, the objections that the young bodybuilding community were giving towards the other ones, is that I don’t relate to a young woman and I don’t relate to an older man. I’m a young man that’s been training for years, and I’ve hit a plateau and I’m looking for that next thing. That’s what this studies on, and it showed significant improvement.

Jeff:                       Does it have any untrained women, that’s a bit sexist isn’t it?

Matt:                     Yeah, I just told you all that.

Steve:                   Yeah, there was.

Matt:                     That’s what these blokes were bitching about. Saying I’m not a premenopausal woman.

Steve:                   Elderly men, there’s one for me, of course. Premenopausal women, randomized trial.

Jeff:                       Well there you go-

Matt:                     Premenopausal doesn’t mean old, okay.

Steve:                   18 is too young. 18 to 50.

Jeff:                       [crosstalk 00:46:26] change of life.

Steve:                   That was April 2019, so that was last month. This is how often these things are coming out. So when people say there’re no studies on it, it blows my brain.

Jeff:                       But you know again, it comes down to suiting a narrative doesn’t it?

Matt:                     It also comes down to the fact that we are also, like I said earlier, extremely under attack by regulatory bodies, and there is very little we can say about anything, let alone post and publish.

Jeff:                       You’re answering other questions later down the track.

Matt:                     Well I don’t know these questions Jeff.

Jeff:                       I know, you haven’t even read this.

Matt:                     How do I? Too busy doing stuff, and things.

Jeff:                       Okay, what is your opinion on exercise physiologists and do you as naturopaths recommend them?

Matt:                     Shit, yeah, you need someone to measure. You can only manage what you measure. We need someone that is going to calculate this stuff, get you, you’re starting point, but monitor. But what I would love to see in exercise physiologist do is learn some of the subjective symptoms that might give us bit of a tip as to when their body compositions about to hit a … Most of them do it, most of them, you know people come and go, no, lets start the same, I’m not even hungry anymore. I’ve hit a plateau, I’m not losing, I’m feeling like I’m all puffy. So these people, oh okay, they might pick up on some of those cues to now change, if they talked to us more we can actually teach some of the skills we learnt out of the naturopath clinic. Because naturopath clinic isn’t allowed, or hasn’t had the training, doesn’t a lot of the objective measurements that doctors and even PTs and that do. You don’t see as many naturopaths measuring body composition and looking at calipers, and managing weight.

They talk about symptom picture and subjective, where you’ll get exercise physiologists and PTs who are taking objective measurements, looking for the changes in the numbers, and then manipulating diet and exercise. So a combination of the two would be fantastic, where the subjective symptom pictures we can show them, which symptoms linked to thyroid. Which symptoms linked to estrogen, which symptoms, we can get a before the body hits a plateau or before the body rebounds, they can make those changes. So a hybrid thing would be brilliant.

Steve:                   I like the exercise people because that’s where my deficiencies are, like we don’t know much about exercise. Ah, yeah I’ve got an idea about it but I’m not trained in it. I did go to 20 hours in my course about exercise and was like, yeah do it, it’s good for you.

Matt:                     Numbers don’t care.

Steve:                   No.

Matt:                     It’s truly also good to have an objective measurement from an exercise physiologist, or a PT just to keep you honest. Go yeah, look your subjective stuff, in this instance it’s working, objectively everything’s working well, perhaps you’re just whinging.

Steve:                   I used to rush-

Matt:                     So they always have that ability as well.

Steve:                   Yeah, I remember I used to run a three day bioimpedance course in the olden days, where we used to measure body composition objectively, not like ah you look trimmer today. It was like numbers and numbers don’t lie. We used to call it lie detector.

Matt:                     That’s good hey.

Steve:                   It was good days, those fun things.

Jeff:                       Cool, why do you guys not like whey protein?

Matt:                     I love whey protein, it makes me fart, lactose makes me fart.

Jeff:                       This is an interesting because I think a lot of people think that we don’t like [crosstalk 00:49:15].

Matt:                     No, a lot of that reference data that we talked about … Excuse me.

Jeff:                       You’ve had some whey.

Matt:                     When we mentioned, yeah no, it’s the other end, when we mentioned collagen versus whey, versus placebo I don’t, we’re not saying versus, we’re not saying it’s us versus them. It’s a comparative study showing the effects of one thing to another, to another. Now, for someone to take that statement from us and say, well you said collagen is better than whey, so no, they’re synergistic. They work together, they actually both stimulate Mtor through different pathways-

Jeff:                       Different mechanisms.

Matt:                     Which, is a synergistic interaction. Now, to say that I’d believe that I don’t like whey or something, because we talk about collagen versus whey in a paper, don’t forget that was also collagen versus placebo, and placebo is eating food.

Steve:                   Food.

Matt:                     I’m not against eating food. I’m not saying look at this paper, eat 15 grams of collagen a day and forget everything else. But you could think maybe that’s what I’ve said, because people come and tell me that I’m wrong because of protein score, that collagen-

Steve:                   Oh protein score.

Matt:                     … no good, because-

Steve:                   Do people still use that?

Matt:                     Yeah no, some people do a protein score because well protein score is referring to when you’re looking at studies on looking for a sole source of nutrition.

Steve:                   Yes, that’s right.

Matt:                     Looking for staple foods within the diet. What do we tell the population to eat for meat, as their source of protein? That’s when they look at protein score. If I’m talking about 15 grams out of your what, 200 grams of protein you might be consuming, that’s got nothing to do with whether it’s a complete protein.

Jeff:                       When we first launched the protein as well, we just said, just make one serve, 15 grams a day and it has all these additional benefits.

Matt:                     It’ll do that, yeah.

Jeff:                       Stevo, I’m not a huge fan of whey protein, don’t forget Matt and I when we’re looking at a lot of these formulas, and Matt’s coming to me, or I’m saying, hey Matt can you find a solution to this?

Matt:                     We were dairy intolerant, which is why-

Jeff:                       It makes me snotty. As soon as I start, and I will snore at night if I have whey protein. So for me I avoid dairy as much as possible. I know you hate dairy in all forms, right?

Steve:                   Well it’s simply because of the messenger-

Matt:                     What’s that time you sucked it straight from the cow?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     [crosstalk 00:51:16].

Steve:                   No, because dairies got SHR in, and we know the work by Melnick who talks about it stimulating [inaudible 00:51:22] genes, which I’m not a fan of cancers, you know what I mean.

Matt:                     What?

Steve:                   There is an association.

Matt:                     Pussy.

Jeff:                       That’s Mtor motherfucker. Where’s your science bro.

Steve:                   The message in our unit is a problem, and of course we’re not supposed to have cows milk. Like we’re typically lactose intolerant as humans, especially Asians are terribly lactose intolerant. We’ve had some genetic, on gene number two, that’s simply peters out after about six months of age. So dairy is problematic in a number of studies, a number of problems. But also, there has been studies when they compare whey and collagen, and simply collagen just has better nitrogen retention. So it holds in the body better, because-

Matt:                     That’s not even our paper, is it?

Steve:                   No, it’s not our paper, that’s a study-

Matt:                     That was done a decade ago.

Steve:                   Yeah a decade ago.

Jeff:                       Make sure you put the link up to that one as well Stevo.

Steve:                   Yeah sure, just published, it’s American Dietetic Association.

Matt:                     There you go.

Steve:                   When they were testing whey versus collagen, collagen was better because it held on more nitrogen in the body, so the body utilized it more. Because of course our body is made of collagen, so of course it’s going to-

Matt:                     30% of our-

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     Total body protein or something.

Steve:                   But I’m still not against whey because whey takes out a lot of the other really bad stuff in dairy, so whey is the best of the-

Jeff:                       Look Steve, and I hear what you’re saying, and I agree with that, I don’t take it for my reasons, Matt doesn’t take it for his reasons, you don’t, there might be a small percentage of the population that actually don’t have any of those negative impacts from whey. Go ahead and take it if you want to.

Matt:                     Yeah it’s not bad.

Jeff:                       Maybe look at some of the other things that you’re talking about Steve, as far as-

Steve:                   Whole milk.

Jeff:                       Sure, and that’s a different argument. But you know, yeah, so anyway that answers that. Guys we want to keep going.

Matt:                     Good.

Jeff:                       If you were to plant only three fruit trees what would they be and why?

Steve:                   That’s a good question.

Matt:                     I reckon-

Steve:                   I’ve got two already.

Matt:                     … pomegranate-

Jeff:                       Yeah I was going to say pomegranate.

Matt:                     Schisandra berry bush.

Steve:                   Ah yeah that’s a fruit.

Matt:                     I love it, you can use it for so many things. I think grape. A grapevine because you can use the leaves, we can use the pomace, we can use the thing and then I can make grappa, and wine and everything else out of it. So I reckon grape, pomegranate, Schisandra, I’d be a pretty happy chappy.

Jeff:                       I got two of them, pomegranate-

Steve:                   Pomegranate.

Jeff:                       Pomegranate, apple, and yeah it’s pretty hard to go-

Matt:                     Pink lady apple I bet.

Steve:                   I like-

Jeff:                       No, jazz.

Matt:                     You love the jazz?

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Steve:                   What about tomatoes?

Matt:                     I’ve seen your jazz hands, I thought you was a pink lady.

Jeff:                       And all that jazz.

Matt:                     Oh I’m a pink lady kind of guy myself, for the jazz hands.

Steve:                   What about tomatoes for your prostate?

Jeff:                       I hate tomatoes.

Steve:                   Do you?

Jeff:                       I hate them.

Steve:                   I didn’t know that.

Matt:                     I love cooked tomatoes but I can’t, it’s those idiots that make Greek salad, just chop your shit up properly, and I’ll eat it.

Jeff:                       All right, next question. Why do you think food intolerance are increasingly more prevalent these days?

Steve:                   Oh that’s a good question.

Matt:                     Man, my theories of this have changed a lot.

Steve:                   Have they?

Matt:                     Yeah, they have man. The more testing I’ve done on food allergies the more it confirmed my theory, but that’s probably one of them self fulfilling prophecies there. But I used to talk a lot about leaky gut wall, lack of oral tolerance, the poor digestion. So we’re not digesting our food properly, and therefore we’re absorbing it still intact. Our immune systems not regulated properly, so we’ve got lack of oral tolerance, meaning that we’re always reacting to either our overgrowth of bugs, or our over supply of things. The funny thing is, is through my experience of doing immunoglobulin testing I would do all that, and with that bullshit theory, not bullshit theory, all that’s true but in reality it had bullshit results. Because I could go through fix all of that through managing the gut and taking those foods, and all their symptoms go. Then eventually it all starts coming back, then I go do another allergy test and find out the foods that I’ve taken them off they’re not allergic to anymore, the foods I’ve put them on they’re suddenly allergic to.

What we’ve got to realize is we’re designed to cycle through our diet. We’re supposed to eat with the seasons. We’re not supposed to eat the same food every bloody day. If you do eventually you’re going to build up an antigen load that’s going to create a mucocele or immunity memory for it and you’re going to become intolerant to it. So again, yes, it always goes back to digestion, your stress levels, are you sitting down to eat? What’s the quality of your gut wall? But our gut wall doesn’t erode gradually or get destroyed and then take months and months to repair. You imagine your gut wall like a breathing membrane, so you can’t really just fix a leaky gut wall and have it stay sealed and solid. It’s not like a wall, that you can patch it up-

Steve:                   It’s supposed to leak nutrients-

Matt:                     Yeah, that’s how, yeah one of the main causes of leaky gut wall is lack of nutrients. It’s opened the holes, bring stuff in, we’ll work it, we’ll sort through the good and bad. We just need something. So my big theory with the allergies now is we need to eat local, cycle through the seasons and don’t eat the same food every day.

Steve:                   Yeah and of course eat what you’re supposed to eat.

Jeff:                       Can the Keto diet negatively impact on ovulation?

Matt:                     It depends on your body fat too.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     There’s a lot of aspects with that with body fat but also insulin directly influences the aromatase conversion testosterone to estrogen. So, if your insulins down you’ll get more conversion, if your body fat goes too low then your menstrual cycle will shut down.

Steve:                   Yeah and you’ve got to remember the Keto diet means you’re burning fat. So if you’re starving and burning fat you will not ovulate.

Jeff:                       Okay.

Steve:                   So Keto diet is a little bit-

Matt:                     I don’t know effectively, [inaudible 00:56:38] ketones, I don’t know what they do in terms of the ovulation.

Jeff:                       There’re questions on that a little bit later on. Okay, I want to try and rip through these.

Matt:                     Come on, rip it.

Jeff:                       Okay. Seeing different opinions across social media about the credibility of ATP Science, why don’t you guys have studies on your finished products?

Steve:                   That’s a good question.

Jeff:                       I’ve added finished there.

Matt:                     Yeah, so one it’s quite tricky, so the rules keep changing in multiple countries. So we’re in a global market place, and so we basically have to comply with the regional laws. So for example, in Australia and that sort of stuff if we’re selling products under as a food, then I can’t have any sort of drug like claims. So maybe, you know if I did a paper a while ago, like a decade ago, I can’t remember when it was actually, I used to be able to do studies on obese people to show a fat loss effect without making a drug claim. But then they defined obesity as a disease, and then all of a sudden all the studies associated with changing of obesity with the word obesity in it, now have associated to a drug claim. You’ve got to register it as a therapeutic good.

It’s very, very tricky because the technical aspects of your categorization of your products revolve around does it alter structure and function? Apparently now with foods, and this is the big problem that we’re going through now, and a bit of a transition phase, is there was a phase where food used to be able to prevent things. Food used to be able to make you healthy, food was associated with traditional use of soups, and stews, and teas. A lot of our traditional medicine systems were traditional food systems. You know we used to be able to say things like, let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.

Steve:                   Not anymore.

Matt:                     All that sort of now are now claims, because there is a perception out there that we’re all criminals, and if we make a statement, or if we try to educate someone about a study that’s been done on a product or how it works, or something like that, then we’re tricking them. The problem is, is we’re stuck at the moment where we’ve started multiple trials only to have the rules changed and not be able to get any of the claims out of those trials. If you publish any of those trials that happen to have words in them, like the gut stuff. If we go through and alter commensal flora and then they decide that candida is suddenly not a commensal but candidiasis is a specific thing. Then you’ve made a drug claim on a product like Gut Righter, you can’t even make any claims on the things like multi foods so-

Steve:                   There is the perception-

Matt:                     Then we look in America, the FDA is like yeah man do this sort of stuff, publish it. But the FTC is like oh, a consumer felt like they were misled, it didn’t actually happen for them, so now we’re going to let them sue you. So it’s a very … This has led to the anti science movement and this has also led to the frustration of the evidence backed movement. So we’ve got these group of people that have got science that’s sitting in their drawer, or their filing cabinet, that the scientists all talk about and share, and discuss. None of it sees the light of day.

Jeff:                       So I mean the best way to be able to obviously talk about products is the ingredients studies, which we still can obviously talk about.

Matt:                     That’s what we’re allowed to talk about.

Steve:                   Yeah, the only other thing is, lets say ATP Science did a study on an ATP Science product and it was great, it showed great improvement in impotence or whatever. Let’s say you couldn’t say that, but let’s say you could, lets say. There’s going to be social media as this person says, oh well of course they found a positive, they paid for it. [crosstalk 01:00:02]

Jeff:                       … University of Sydney recently got in massive trouble because they published a paper on, was it Elderberries Flu-

Matt:                     Flu, yeah.

Jeff:                       Did you see that? Did you see that in the news?

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   Yeah.

Jeff:                       They didn’t cite that it was actually undertaken by-

Matt:                     The people that do it.

Jeff:                       … yeah those people that did it. Not only that as well too, hard to believe, but ATP Science is not a mega national corporation. To do a significant study of any merit, we’re looking at $300 000-

Steve:                   $300 000.

Matt:                     In two years.

Jeff:                       In two years.

Matt:                     That’s per paper.

Jeff:                       Then we basically prove our product does something, which is then reputed-

Matt:                     Funded by us.

Steve:                   Yeah funded by us.

Jeff:                       Funded by us, which people may go, well I don’t believe it. Then it has to go through registration, then we can’t sell it because then it has to go through registration process.

Steve:                   Just to elaborate, the TJ have a list of what you can and can’t say about any product. There’s just-

Matt:                     Oh they tell you already what you can and can’t say.

Steve:                   It’s already stated, and this is not making this up. So even if you said, oh no, but we found this in our big $300 000 study-

Matt:                     Then you have to take your product off the market and over five years?

Steve:                   Yeah.

Matt:                     And I don’t know how much to actually get the product back on the market with that, once they review your research, to say that we need another couple of-

Jeff:                       You can’t just rely on one paper.

Matt:                     No, it’s got to be a couple.

Steve:                   Got to be a couple.

Matt:                     But you can’t fund, well you know then you see these people, you reference coleus and say, well Sebenza funded that, it’s a load of rubbish, they make coleus. How do you do it?

Steve:                   But then lets say we came up with a 1000 milligrams of-

Matt:                     In saying that we do the studies and we just don’t publish them all. Like as part of our stage coat system, all the free products, finished products are trialed and we have all that data, we just can’t, it’s just not allowed to be used.

Steve:                   Then of course lets say you come out with one gram of Vitex does this, and then they go, oh great we can say that now. So then another company comes out with one gram of Vitex and says the same thing.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   So it’s kind of like, okay where’d that get us? If we can’t patent a natural medicine, if I developed a new whizz bang drug for cholesterol, lets say I invented the Statin.

Matt:                     So if you managed to chlorinate sucralose or something, you know which is sucralose, you could then have all those-

Steve:                   Patent it.

Matt:                     … claims, and patent it, and own it for a period of time.

Steve:                   Exactly.

Matt:                     You can’t do that-

Steve:                   I can’t patent.

Jeff:                       Where you get your money back, because obviously the research is expensive. However, do say, look at the studies, especially with things with [inaudible 01:02:20] and Chinese traditional medicine, which has got … Also, the amount of studies that are done on the individual ingredients. If the company that you’re looking at has got a demonstrated ability to produce products then there should be results, the proof is in the pudding. The product should actually work and there should be good anecdotal evidence coming out from the people that are using the product as well.

Steve:                   Absolutely, I love that question.

Jeff:                       They’re even looking to shut that down as well too.

Steve:                   Yes, I know. It’s an excellent question though.

Matt:                     It is.

Jeff:                       Yup, okay, is kombucha actually beneficial?

Matt:                     Oh yeah we’ve done a whole podcast on that.

Steve:                   We did a podcast on fermented foods-

Matt:                     Massive amounts of information on kombucha.

Jeff:                       Okay.

Matt:                     So you can go to our web page and use that search bar, and type in kombucha and it’ll actually go through the transcripts and all the episodes. Get right into that.

Steve:                   It’s really great resources.

Matt:                     It’s great for the extrema files.

Jeff:                       Yeah, I like it. Okay, this is a good ones. SARMs, any advice about them?

Matt:                     Okay, first of all can I say something, SARMs, I’m going to say something, I don’t know why I asked permission, it’s my fucking show motherfucker. No, SARMs, stands for selective androgen receptor modifiers.

Jeff:                       Right.

Matt:                     There’s a couple of them. So SARMs, now in amongst what we call SARMs often these people are referring to peptides, injectable peptides and that sort of stuff. SARMs are specific compounds that interact with androgen receptors. A growth hormone releasing hormone peptide is not a SARM and that sort of stuff. A lot of people will lump the term SARM when they’re talking about peptides. Okay, so just understand that not all peptides are SARMs and not SARMs are peptides. So to answer your question my opinion on SARMs. SARMs are an amazing opportunity for us to move forward, because the whole concept of it is regulating the different types of SARM androgen receptors. Now the androgens that we refer to, mainly people thinking testosterone, but we also want to interact with dihydrotestosterone, DHEA, androstenedione and that sort, and even progesterone is an androgen.

So the coolest thing about SARMs is through activation there’s also a certain amount of negative feedback that can help to regulate other conversion pathways, they’re all good in certain ways, and they can all be bad in certain ways. Research the specific product that you plan on taking, find out what it’s effects on the body. Don’t research SARMs if you know what I mean. If you put SARMs into PubMed, you’re going to find information about androgen receptor modifiers. If your peptide that you’re taking is a growth hormone releasing hormone peptide, well that’s irrelevant, you’ve got to research that, okay.

Jeff:                       What are-

Matt:                     These a big confusion there.

Jeff:                       What I’m interested in from the commercial standpoint, as far as the market, is that yeah and there can be some great information on SARMs but how are they delivered? What’s the carriers that they’ve got in there? How were they produced?

Matt:                     Yeah, all that sort of stuff.

Jeff:                       What the hell is some of the stuff?

Matt:                     It’s unregulated.

Jeff:                       A friend of mine was taking one and he said it tasted like acid. It was beyond acid it was really weird, and he started feeling strange after taking it. Now, that could have been placebo. So yeah, I agree with you Matt, SARMs-

Matt:                     Well I was working in a compounding chemist and we had these guys using this particular SARMs they’re injecting, and they couldn’t handle the burn from it. We went and measured the Ph and realized how crazy the Ph was. We went and just adjusted the Ph in the formula, the burns gone. Product all of a sudden works like amazing. So anecdotal and say, all we’ve done is alter the Ph so it doesn’t burn at the injection site. All of a sudden they’re, oh it’s so much better. So it’s not-

Jeff:                       Look and the funny thing is, and I’ve said it before, bodybuilders specifically and athletes are normally at the cutting and forefront of technology. Often they’ll take information and they’ll experiment on themselves like guinea pigs. That’s why we were talking about, we had an interview with somebody about EAS, which is a company. Well that’s [inaudible 01:06:00] for experimental and applied science, experimentation within the science field. So long as it’s safe, it’s a good thing. You get some good information back.

Matt:                     I had a person arguing with me that their peptide was a SARM because they got a spontaneous erection with it. They kept talking about this thing, and I said, is it the tanning one? They said yes, I said, the side effect of the tanning one is spontaneous erections. But it’s a melanin, it’s not a-

Steve:                   What’s that one?

Matt:                     Yes, it’s called … No, I can’t remember. Some tanning peptide can give you spontaneous woodies.

Steve:                   Really?

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   That’s handy to know.

Matt:                     Like a breeze in the right direction.

Steve:                   Yes.

Jeff:                       Okay, next one. What is the story behind the ATP logo? Really quickly. So basically the ATP logo is the globe, is the world. The ninja shuriken star if you like, is actually pointing to the four corners of the earth. So the whole idea is that global company, we’re going out to the four corners of the earth, because we want to help as many people as possible. But we’ve searched the four corners of the earth for the best ingredients, and bring them back, which is the center point of the ATP logo.

Matt:                     So, that was the Pangaea concept.

Jeff:                       Yeah.

Matt:                     This is a beautiful thing, it’s a challenging thing as an Australian company wanting to promote Australian made and all that sort of stuff as well. Because in my opinion, and I’m bias because I’m Australian and a naturopath, but Australian naturopaths are the best in the world.

Steve:                   Of course, we are.

Matt:                     Because they’re not biased by any cultural belief system, so we’re not stuck using traditional Chinese medicine, ying and yang. We can take the best of Chinese, we can take the best of Arevadic, we can take American Indians, or their herbs. We can take all this different stuff and bring it into one place in Australia. So we can search the four corners of the world and find the best stuff, and bring it back to one place, and make it into a great product. Also, when you look at the four elements, you know the earth, air, wind, fire and ether, and so it sits in the ether.

Jeff:                       Nice one.

Matt:                     So we’ve also got that elements covered into that holistic approach of everything we do.

Steve:                   Love it, good explanation.

Jeff:                       Okay, this is a good one. Alpha Venus has fixed my period but caused jawline acne, what causes this?

Matt:                     Oh no, this is common to, or not common, there is multiple different forms of acne. So some acne’s associated with an insulin resistant polycystic ovarian syndrome, where typically we get a lot of problems in the first half of the cycle. There’s another type of acne that can kick on around ovulation and that sort of stuff. Another one that kicks off towards the end, now typically the jawline towards the end is associated with too much progesterone. So not many people realize, I mentioned just a second ago progesterone’s an androgen, so very closely related to testosterone. Progesterone itself can convert to dihydrotestosterone. So, if you’re one of the people getting jawline acne in that luteal phase then you’re looking at conversion of progesterone. We use things like zinc and selenium to treat that. So you could actually probably, if your menstrual cycles regular, well actually if you’re getting those sort of things then it’s a fair chance you’ve got adequate progesterone. I would actually drop the Venus and move onto T432.

Steve:                   Yeah, Primes-

Matt:                     If you were to go to Prime you’re going to free up the bound testosterone and make your acne worse. So switch from Venus to T4.

Steve:                   Absolutely, and of course get off the dairy because that’s acnegenic.

Matt:                     Ah listen to you.

Steve:                   Couldn’t resist that.

Matt:                     But keep the whey.

Steve:                   Yeah, well no, whey’s bad. You want to actually reduce the Mtor when you’ve got acne.

Matt:                     Yeah.

Steve:                   So yeah be careful of the brands change too, and all that sort of stuff. If you’ve got acne.

Jeff:                       Yeah, nice one.

Steve:                   Thank you.

Jeff:                       Guys this is about all the time we’ve got there for today.

Steve:                   Yes.

Jeff:                       We’ll come back with some more next week.

Steve:                   All right, sounds good. See you later.

Matt:                     See you later.

Speaker 3:           Thanks for listening, and remember Question Everything. Well except what we say.

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